Poll: Discord/forum rule against self depreciation

[alias_sqbr]

Imagine you join a discord (or other similar online group social space with rules and moderators) which has this rule: you're not allowed to say anything too self-deprecating. If you do, you must say three nice things about yourself.

The discord otherwise seems appealing.

Poll #30044 Discord/forum rule against self depreciation

Open to: Registered Users, detailed results viewable to: Just the Poll Creator, participants: 40

How would you feel about the rule?

Very positive!
2 (5.0%)

Mildly positive
4 (10.0%)

Neutral/mixed/depends significantly on context
18 (45.0%)

Overall negative but I can probably live with it
10 (25.0%)

NOPE that's a dealbreaker
6 (15.0%)

I never use that kind of site/otherwise can't answer
2 (5.0%)

Asking because I have seen people reblog this tumblr post mentioning such a rule positively, and I also once encountered this rule on what I think was a separate discord (rather than being for a group of friends it was for a fandom that poster does not appear to be interested in) So it seems a non-negligible number of people are cool with such rules.

But my reaction is very negative, and I'm curious to find out how unusual that is. Thus, a poll! I also just want to get across that some people are seriously troubled by such rules, but am genuinely unsure how that compares to the number who would significantly benefit from them.

Note: I'm not asking about variants like self deprecation being discouraged but there's no actual consequences, or whether you find this kind of rule helpful to enforce inside your own head or in other very different kinds of social situations. Nor am I distinguishing between how you would feel about the rule being applied to you, versus your assumptions about a space that has such a rule. If you have different feelings about Discord versus other social spaces, just answer for Discord.

Just: would encountering this specific rule in a real discord overall feel like a positive thing or a negative thing.

So! I picked "NOPE that's a dealbreaker". Because while I'm not usually prone to extreme self deprecation, I have the occasional mental health spiral where I am incapable of not saying negative things, and it would be very harmful for me in that mindset to be told off for expressing these negative feelings and forced to publicly say something positive, no matter how kindly/cheerfully this was done. And from past experience, other people are incredibly bad at noticing when I'm feeling emotionally fragile, even friends. So even if there was supposed to be an exception for people who needed it, I wouldn't trust anyone to recognise that it applied, and I wouldn't be able to express that need in the moment. Also just... being aware of the rule existing makes me incredibly anxious, it feels like my mental health issues make me automatically fail at the rules of the social space.

If a friend invited me to a server with this rule I would explain why it doesn't work for me and maybe we could figure something out. I can see it working for a small group of friends who understand each other's emotional needs. But the discord I encountered this rule in was full of strangers, so I just had an anxiety attack about saying something then silently left. Which I am sure was not the intended reaction!

I do know I'm not unique in being put off, since I asked a a friend and they also thought it sounded excruciating. But "me and my friend" is an even less representative sample than a dreamwidth poll. I was going to post on tumblr but ehhh there could be Reblogs With Discourse and I'm tired. Maybe once you've all had a chance to point out any issues.

Comments

[eccentric_hat]

I'm not a particularly self-deprecatory person, but this strikes me as annoying at best. To my mind, moderation in a community like Discord is about how the members of the community relate to each other; it's not the mods' business how members relate to themselves.

[firecat]

I've mostly trained myself out of saying mean things about myself in public without a disclaimer ("I know I'm being mean to myself over this but I keep thinking...") so I wouldn't have that much trouble following the rule. And if the forum were otherwise interesting I might put up with the rule. But I wouldn't join a forum specifically because it had that rule. And I'd worry that the forum would end up being all about that rule, because of this bit of the tumblr post: everyone else was very eager to inflict making their friends say nice things about themselves

I think there's a cultural habit of self-deprecating speech among certain people (in the past I might have said "women," but I now think the culture(s) where this is practiced is/are narrower than that and I don't know the boundaries). And I'm still deliberating whether it's actually harmful, as a habit. I agree it can be harmful to some people in some circumstances but I don't agree with people who think it's always bad and should be suppressed via peer pressure. Also in some conversation groups, self-deprecation is only one side of the habit and the other side is that other people in the conversation tell you that you're awesome. I quite like that part. I don't like it if I feel like somoene is addicted to it and has no way to self-reassure. But it's pretty great as an extra boost, and for feeling less alone with it all.

So I voted for "neutral/mixed" but now that I've finished typing this comment I would go back and vote for "mostly negative" if I could.

[lilacsigil]

I'm going with negative but I could probably live with it because I expect that it's addressing a problem in the community, not just coming out of nowhere. But if it really was enforced and self-deprecating was constantly judged, yeah, that would be a big issue.

[torachan]

I picked neutral because it would not ever affect me personally. I can definitely see how it would be annoying for other people, though I can also see why someone would want that rule on their server, if they are tired of being around people who are just constantly putting themselves down. It can be really draining. But I'm not sure a rule like that is the best way to address it.

[cindybug]

I'm not a particularly self-deprecating but this rule would fully be a deal-breaker for me because it sounds exhausting.

I'm all for positivity, but mandatory positivity? No thanks.

[cosmicjellyfish]

I'm somewhere between "overall negative" and "dealbreaker" (I don't think the rule would affect me much, but just knowing it existed would put me off). It feels very cloying and one-size-fits-all.

[omens]

The first half is fine, I've been in places bogged down by self-hatred lite before. The second part feels extremely condescending.

[alias_sqbr]

Yeah if it was just the first half I wouldn't have been as bothered.

[alias_sqbr]

Yeah even if it didn't affect me personally I don't think I'd like the vibe.

[alias_sqbr]

Yeah. Like I can see it being a really valuable rule for some people to enforce on themselves, but that's very different to it being enforced by others.

[alias_sqbr]

Right, I can see how it could be good for some people, which is why I decided to make a poll. And it looks like responses are pretty varied so there you go!

[alias_sqbr]

Yeah I can see it being a useful rule for some spaces. Just... not spaces I was in personally.

[alias_sqbr]

Yeah, self deprecation and positivity can both have some complicated social roles.

[alias_sqbr]

I can sort of see how constant self deprecation could bring the conversation down for everyone, but agree this isn't how I would address it.

[yalovetz]

I come from a culture (English) that is famously self-deprecating and that finds saying excessively positive things about oneself positively cringeworthy. It's seen as big-headed and arrogant. Certain types of self-deprecating comments, in this cultural context, are commonly understand as an acceptable form of humble-brag, where positive comments are seen as vulgar boasting.

I feel like this kind of rule is a very American rule and would not work well for a group that was majority English.

[alias_sqbr]

Haha yes now I am just imagining the pain of an English person facing this rule.

[scytale]

Mixed for me!

My initial reaction was "huh that's cool", and I think I'd be okay with it for a smaller group, where everyone (or at least the initial group) is on board with it, and where the theme of the Discord is a place where the rule would make sense (something like, supporive writing group where positivity and mindset changes are explicitly a goal)? And also where there is a sense of psychological safety and closeness -- and where growing closer is an explicit goal? I'm thinking of the writing group example again, where the goal is to become close enough that you can actually comment and support each other, and how "say something nice about yourself!" can be taken as a gentler reminder...not so artificial or controlling.

On the other hand, I don't want this rule for, say, a large NSFW fandom server, and the thought of having the rule imposed by a mod brings out the "YOU'RE NOT MY PARENT" in me, and if I didn't know the mods, it feels like a red flag in a way I'm having trouble articulating. Something about the one-size-fits-all approach to self-esteem, the controllingness, and making mental health a Discord server's business, and also...the way positive affirmations become shaming? And without trust and a sense of connection, I think those positive affirmations become artificial.

I feel like this kind of rule might self-select for people who do well with the rule and this kind of structured interaction setting, which does actually include me! Like there is a part of me that goes, "oooh, I could do that, and I'm pretty private and intentionally positive on Discord anyway! ;D And I'm good with rules and making stuff up! I wonder what kind of compliments I would say about myself and force everyone to listen to!"

[fred_mouse]

Not English, but of the kind of Aus background that held to some of those ideas, and the very idea of saying something good about oneself makes me a little creeped out. And, I'm also aware that some of the understated positive statements that I would recognise get interpreted as negative in some spaces, and that would be difficult to navigate.

I'm a 'could live with it', but I'd have to be there for a reason that had nothing to do with talking about myself, or a whole bunch of other things. In particular, craft, because I'd want to be able to talk about that part of the craft project (and it happens on every project for me) where I start to question my life choices, my ability to finish, my creative decisions, etc, and to not be able to say something about that would mean that I wouldn't want to be there.

[winterbird]

(Gonna rant but like, rant in I think mostly agreement because yuck sdaklfjsa) (But a warning so you don't have to read a rant lol)

Total dealbreaker, and honestly, I'm going to say it's toxic positivity at its most extreme - erasing symptoms of mental illness for the convenience of others, even if they have mental illness. It's 'oh no, we don't want to SUPPORT YOU, we want you to SHUT THE **** UP or you're OUT.'

I have actually seen a server come *very* close to this, it's a very 'we're all positive all the time!' server and it's like, oh so it's just an image and meme dump, fuck this. And even that server I can't use, and it doesn't feel positive for me because it's very clear they don't really want me to be myself there.

Like, the self-deprecation is part of the mix! I get that it's something to work on, but I'll do that with my therapist and amongst people who care for me, and not like... a toxic positivity server. Imho, in cases where the self-deprecation is too much, making a mental health room, directly people who engage in it too much to vent there, and then muting that channel is a good solution. Some people want to feel supportive, some people need support, and honestly a fairly steady 'so sorry you're having a terrible day and feel down on yourself! You might want to take this to X channel for some support' would at least make someone a bit more vigilant about excessive put-downs without making them feel like they don't belong *at all.*

I feel like many Australians are pretty famously self-deprecating. The Tall Poppy Syndrome makes it hard for us to justifiably be upbeat and positive about ourselves all the time (because someone will often sarcastically or teasingly cut us down if we don't do it first) and sometimes it's even a form of mateship when two people who do it for the same thing kind of smile and laugh a bit and then are like 'okay but no you're amazing.' There are places / cultures / countries where it's literally part of the language, and excising it out means watching every single sentence in a way that self-polices to frankly a fairly extreme degree.

Like, yes, it would be nice to live in a world where no one talks negatively about themselves. But we don't.

A person can make a server with whatever rules they wish, including 'you will be banned if you don't say poopoo wee wee at the end of every sentence' - but honestly, I feel 'no self-deprecation language' is as absurd, and much less fun poopoo wee wee.

(I have strong feelings about this!)

Also re: that Tumblr post, I am SURE not every person in that Discord found it a positive experience unless there's only 4 people in the server and they all wanted it.

Forcing someone to say 3 positive things about themselves when they're not ready to makes them a) lie, or b) sometimes overloads them. It's possible to become suicidal, feeling coerced to do things like that - because it is coercion. It's literally 'you cannot socialise with us unless you do this' - it's an ultimatum walking around enforcing a social behaviour that can do harm. We call it toxic positivity for a reason, and it's not because it's always 100% wholesome, good and healthy. Like, if you're going to try and control someone's behaviour to *this* degree (i.e. above and beyond pretty standard server rules) like, maybe have a link to some helplines for if you push someone over the edge with this? But I suspect the cheerful little bubbles who came up with this rule can't conceive of the fact that it could burst someone else's. (That's very uncharitable of me, but if they can, I'm likely to be even angrier about it lol).

In a friend server where everyone consents even if they initially find it uncomfortable - sure. In a broader server, or a fandom server, gross, not in front of my salad.

There have been times in my life where I couldn't think of a single positive thing about myself. It's a symptom of a severe disease, not something that gets cured with trite little alienating rules. Better a server like that just say 'we don't want anyone with severe mental health issues here, and here's the little hoops you have to jump through to prove you're kind of like... not doing too badly or at healthy enough to belong. Haha it's a cute little mini-test of your ability to be normal and nice like we are!!! Everyone who does it feels GREAT (which also, gross? What if someone doesn't? Are they going to feel safe enough to speak up in that environment?)'

I am not surprised that comments on that Tumblr post are restricted, lol.

I want to reblog the Tumblr post with my ruthless reply but I know what's likely to happen in result.

A therapist once realised she pushed me into a panic attack when she tried to do an exercise like this with me, and we eventually talked about it. And it's like, some people have been hurt for saying positive things about themselves, some people really hate lying to others and feeling forced to 'no you HAVE to think of ONE THING' feels a lot like verbal force - especially from a therapist, some people have been told the opposite all their lives they feel like everyone is suddenly very untrustworthy who is demanding something very different, the reasons go on and on, all the way down to 'chemical imbalance and I need meds, not some toxic positivities trying to fix me.'

Idk maybe I need my own category of 'SUCH a dealbreaker I might actually lecture every single person who participates in a server like that and then ask them where they got their therapy degree from.' Or just a category like 'HELL NO *RAGEQUIT*'

I'm sorry Sean you have very nice and logical and pragmatic comments and here I am with my seething overcooked 'oh no I forgot to check on my two minute noodles crap the pot bubbled over' reaction lol.

Wait I have three nice things to say about myself:

'I will never disrespect myself by joining a server like this'
'I am empathetic enough to know that toxic positivity is bullshit'
'I am able to recognise when something is ableist or when I've internalised mental health ableism.'

*slides off into the distance*

(Do you think they'd let me stay if these were the positive things I said on the server)

[alias_sqbr]

We already discussed this on discord but this is a glorious rant <3

[alias_sqbr]

Yeah, it would not at all suit me (or from the sounds of things many other people), so I don't think it should be used on broad public servers, but I can see it being a nice thing for small servers where everyone's on board.