What annoys me about fanfic meta about itself

[alias_sqbr]

(separated out as a tangent from Old school fandom: Can we fix it?)

There's a difference between "here are some flaws in X group"/"Here are some awesome things about my group" (both of which are valid) and "Let's think about the differences between X and my group. Well.. X has all these flaws. And my group is awesome. Because we are awesome people, and they are flawed people (apart from the ones who eventually realise how awesome we are and change sides)."

There is a jump from "there is an undertone of misogyny to some slash"/"There is an undertone of homophobia to some non-slashers behaviour" to "slashers are misogynistic"/"non-slashers are homophobic" to "If you really cared you'd write (fem)slash"(*).

One of things which made me feel excluded from fanfic fandom for years was this attitude that "A lot of fanfic works this way"->"This is What Fanfic Is"->"Everything that is not This sucks and is probably written and enjoyed by misogynistic and/or dull men". Yes, a lot of fanfic takes canon characters and puts them into a romance, but that doesn't mean that I'm Missing The Point of fanfic if I take the setting and write gen about some original characters. And the fact that male dominated fandom tends to be sexist and dismissive of fanfic doesn't mean there's a direct correlation between having tastes in line with conventional fandom and being sexist/narrowminded. Acting this way means female fans with "male" tastes get treated badly in both fandoms.

I'm not sure I've ever seen any "Let's compare stuff from fanfic fandom to equivalent stuff made by people outside" meta that didn't spend every second paragraph talking about how much more awesome and creative and feminist and postmodern "our" stuff is.

One of the things about online fandom (especially on lj) is it's much bigger and more finely delineated which makes it easier to avoid really obnoxious people and create your own space but also makes it easy forget that your like-minded friendslist is not all there is to fandom. When I see a comment like Ursula LeGuin fans could demonstrate a little of the progressive social values of Stargate:Atlantis fans I have to wonder if they count all the fans in mainstream male dominated fandom who think Teyla is hot and enjoy the explosions or whatever. And if they don't count, why don't I get to redefine "Ursula LeGuin" fans the same way? (And here I start shading into my next post :))

nb: I realise one of things fanfic meta does is tend to focus exclusively on fanfic (and specifically, boyslash) to the exclusion of other sorts of fannish creativity and I've kind of done that here. I guess I can't break out of the very mindset I'm criticising!

(*)These arguments annoyed me a lot less once I wrote some femslash, since now I'm one irrational-smug-moral-superiority level above the smug m/m slash writers :)

Comments

[http://users.livejournal.com/peasant_/]

I think my answer to hele has pretty much covered this (in other words: I agree).

I mean if someone writes sexist fic or whatever then I think that's bad, but it's not inherently less fanficcish.

That is actually an interesting question, because I undoubtedly write sexist fic - and when I started I was doing it accidentally without any real notion of what I was doing or why. But lately I have come to realise that the sexism is a very important part of what I am enjoying about fanfic, and hence I am pushing those boundaries, exploring gender by being deliberately sexists and seeing what happens. I know a few feminists who would have a fit if they saw my current stuff - and a few who would smile quietly and say 'now P's getting it'. And beyond just me (fascinating as I am ;) I think I can see signs of that in other people's work. I am beginning to suspect that one of the many revolutionary things going on in the fic community (I really have no experience of art or vids) is a reaction against PC and hence people are exploring beyond the boundaries of what is acceptable in every way - not just the commonly defined social norms but the newer social norms of PC, social justice, call it what you will.

But it is happening as a by-product of having fun, of just people writing what they want to write, normally without too much thought about why they are doing it, which in many ways makes it far stronger. Because let's face it, nobody has ever really managed to make writers write anything other than the things they naturally and instinctively wanted to write anyway, least of all the writers themselves.

Which brings us back to to your comment. If somebody actually wanted to use fanfic as a medium for social change, they would fail. Because fanfic is too free, too uncontrollable, too independent of anything, and that most certainly includes any social justice activists who might fancy using it for their own agendas. But social change is still a by-product of fanfic, and since the general drift of society is in that direction, fanfic will be swept along in the tide and become part of furthering the causes of social justice. But it might do so in some very unexpected ways.

[alias_sqbr]

I am beginning to suspect that one of the many revolutionary things going on in the fic community (I really have no experience of art or vids) is a reaction against PC and hence people are exploring beyond the boundaries of what is acceptable in every way - not just the commonly defined social norms but the newer social norms of PC, social justice, call it what you will.

Heh. I have this whole rant about the twin meanings of PC as "Basic human decency with regards to caring about the effect of your words on other people" and "Counterproductive dogma". This is particularly relevant to "sexist" fanfic by women since it messes so much with the id, for example some feminists define anything pornographic as sexist and evil, while others define anything pornographic by and for women as feminist, and both decry the other as "sexist" and/or "too PC". But yes, fanfic does give us all a chance to explore things which would be condemned elsewhere (for whatever reason, and for good or ill)

But social change is still a by-product of fanfic, and since the general drift of society is in that direction, fanfic will be swept along in the tide and become part of furthering the causes of social justice. But it might do so in some very unexpected ways.

Agreed.

That said, I think people can use their own fanfic for social justice, same way as they can use music or art or whatever. They just can't use ALL of fanfic fandom.

[http://users.livejournal.com/peasant_/]

(Disclaimer: I am hugely brain tired today, but I need to answer because I will be very short of time starting next week and I don't want to leave it until I am time rich again.)

I think people can use their own fanfic for social justice, same way as they can use music or art or whatever. They just can't use ALL of fanfic fandom.

Agreed. Nobody can steer the herd, whether from outside or within it, but they personally can run whichever way they want, and sometimes the herd will chose to turn with them. All anyone can do is try and see what happens.

I have this whole rant about the twin meanings of PC as "Basic human decency with regards to caring about the effect of your words on other people" and "Counterproductive dogma".
I think it is one sign of how far we have come that a lot of stuff that twenty years ago was considered PC is now classed under 'bleeding obvious requirement of good manners' and the term PC is left lumbered with some pretty fringe weird and wonderful dogma.

I look forward to reading your rant some day.

This is particularly relevant to "sexist" fanfic by women since it messes so much with the id
I have to admit I am having trouble understanding this sentence. If you could unpack it I would be grateful.

[alias_sqbr]

Well, I'm no psychologist so my usage of "id" is a very loose probably totally theoretically wrong one I've picked up from fanfic meta. I have no stake in the whole Freudian thing about the Id being biological or whatever, I just mean "The part(s) of the mind that responds to basic wish fulfillment/sexual etc stuff in a very simple intense way".

So, my argument with more unpacking: a lot of fanfic is blatantly self indulgent, either wish fulfillment or sexual kink etc (as a writer and reader of gen I don't like the assumption that this is all sexual: my "Disney Princess creates democracy" and "Gu'uald is trapped in a cats body" stories were more about the Id than my femslash, at least as I define Id) And a lot of what women really deep down want to read or write has some disturbing sexual dynamics, often playing into sexist stereotypes etc. So either you try and put limits on it and as a result police women's sexuality, or you don't and you encourage the production of stories which perpetuate sexist ideas, and both of these actions can be seen as pretty sexist and result in incredibly heartfelt and intense responses (as I'm sure you have seen).

rec

[aquaeri.livejournal.com]

I think you'd find ellen_fremedom's ideas about the Id Vortex very relevant.
http://ellen-fremedon.livejournal.com/325780.html
It'll possibly help you understand Sophie when she talks about the id, too.

Re: rec

[http://users.livejournal.com/peasant_/]

Thanks, an interesting link.

A lot of my trouble with the id thing is I can never remember what the damn word means. I can obviously look it up in a dictionary, but I can't seem to keep a grasp on the wider cultural usage which is necessary to understand its full meaning in conversation. Hence its simpler for me to ask alias_sqbr to unpack it than to attempt to remember the possible meanings and try to work out which nuances she is using in this context.

id

[aquaeri.livejournal.com]

Disclaimer: This isn't meant to be a lecture on 'how dare you not remember what 'id' means', but more my mind meandering around how complicated 'id' is, and no wonder it's hard to keep a grasp of!

***************

I've had a bit of a think and I'm not sure you can get a grasp on the wider cultural usage of "id", or at least that it'd be a consistent concept you were grasping. It comes from Freud, who divided the personality into id, ego, superego, which I've heard described as child, adult, parent. Or alternatively, id are the "base emotional urges" unfiltered by civilisation and culture. In ellen_fremedon's usage, I think she's particularly thinking of raw sexual desire, selfish and untrammeled by what is "right and proper".

But there's at least two assumptions here I have problems with. Firstly, to assume that the 'base emotional urges' of a human being are entirely selfish (which is what most uses of 'id' seem to me to assume) - it seems to me that it's a very basic human emotional urge to interact with other humans, seek connections and relationships; and secondly that, for example, 'base sexual urges' aren't strongly influenced by upbringing, culture and civilisation. For example, ellen_fremedon describes the effect on her of Hawkeye/Mulcahy fic, which means nothing to me because I've never watched an entire episode of M*A*S*H. (I know enough to recognise the names and be aware of the cultural importance of the show to many other people.) And it's going to then become very hard to compare ellen_fremedon's 'base sexual urges' with my 'base sexual urges' and determine that, at base, they are somehow unaffected by culture, when to even evoke them strongly seems to require incompatible cultural references. (I admit I don't know what fic might surf the Id Vortex of my sexual desires. But I'm guessing it wouldn't do It for her, just like this fic doesn't do It for me.)

And yet I feel I get what it is ellen_fremedon is trying to point at when she talks about surfing the Id Vortex, and the writing techniques she describes (in the follow-up post) sound exactly right, like "yep, I must be thinking of much the same thing she's thinking of if these are techniques for doing it".

I think alias_sqbr is talking about a related, overlapping issue - our sexual desires are what they are, and for most of us are hard to change even if they're not PC or feminist or otherwise "desirable". And for example lesbian feminists insisting other women aren't real feminists as long as they're sexually attracted to men - those other women are going to take that pretty hard, right? Particularly in a culture where the mainstream is only aware of male sexual desire and it's often a long hard slog for women to connect with their own sexual desire and reclaim it, and themselves as sexual beings, not just objects of sexual desire to men.

And then other women come in and say to them "your reclaimed sexual self is distorted by your years of only experiencing yourself as a sexual object" (which is actually close to my gut feeling about at least some m/m fic) and yeah, no wonder outside observers wonder if feminists can ever change the world when we're so busy arguing amongst ourselves about fundamental issues of self-identity and self-acceptance.

I think "messy" is really the important word here :-).

Re: id

[http://users.livejournal.com/peasant_/]

Ah yes, now I remember why I can never get a handle on the whole id, ego, super-ego thing - it's because the whole thing bears no resemblance to my world view. The closest I can get to the idea of an id might be some sort of time-scale thing, whereby humans or primates or whatever had particular instincts and behaviours earlier than others, but all that does is beg the question of what is the cut off date? And I agree, there are enough studies showing the advantages of cooperation as a behaviour, as well as numerous examples showing cooperative behaviour in other primates, to reject the idea that everything primitive must be selfish.

I took ellen_fremedon's 'Id Vortex' to be referring to fic kinks, and possibly their interaction with squicks, and she was making some nice points about how fic writers can be better at writing that stuff than pros because we have developed a toolbox for doing so. Whether kinks are primitive sexual urges (whatever that might mean) or modern cultural accretions would be pretty irrelevant to her argument.

I'll let alias_sqbr explain for herself what she meant in her own comment, should she so wish, but to address the points in your own:

our sexual desires are what they are, and for most of us are hard to change even if they're not PC or feminist or otherwise "desirable". And for example lesbian feminists insisting other women aren't real feminists as long as they're sexually attracted to men - those other women are going to take that pretty hard, right? Particularly in a culture where the mainstream is only aware of male sexual desire and it's often a long hard slog for women to connect with their own sexual desire and reclaim it, and themselves as sexual beings, not just objects of sexual desire to men.

Well, when I was describing my own writing as sexist I wasn't actually thinking in terms of sexuality which is a slightly different kettle of fish. I was mainly talking about how I started out writing from a male POV, which incidentally marginalised women, and worrying about it; and now I have gone to a place where I very deliberately marginalise the female characters, pushing to see just how far I can marginalise them and take away their place in the society I am creating. This is partly done as a historical exercise (I write Buffy the Vampire Slayer fic set in the late nineteenth century, focussing on the vampire characters) so I am matching the female roles to existing historical stereotypes (wife, mother, daughter, charity worker, socialite, whore etc.). And it is partly because it is fun. It is relaxing away from the requirement to make every female character a powerful women with agency, individuality and intentions. It allows me to give my male characters some downright misogynistic lines, which is huge fun when you are identifying with them, and generally lets me let rip.

And what is fascinating is that in the process my female characters have come more alive and achieved far greater focus (and there are also numerically more of them) than there were when I was nominally at least nodding to the PC rules and worrying about 'neglecting' them. They have also achieved a surprising amount of power and agency for themselves that they never had before - but it is a far far more historically accurate form of power and agency.

This probably mainly goes to show that writing is a freaky business.

no wonder outside observers wonder if feminists can ever change the world when we're so busy arguing amongst ourselves about fundamental issues of self-identity and self-acceptance.
I just started to say some very rude things, but have reined myself in and am leaving this quote here as a memo to myself not to indulge even if the conversation continues.

Re: id

[alias_sqbr]

I think there's definitely a place for fiction which explores and maybe even celebrates "bad" stuff like sexism etc without explicitly hitting the reader over the head with "THESE ATTITUDES ARE NOT ENDORSED BY THE AUTHOR". That said I think it can be done badly, and think a lot of authors do it too unthinkingly so that it feels like they're saying "These attitudes ARE endorsed by the author". But not having read your fic I'll just assume it's the sort I like :D

Re: id

[alias_sqbr]

See above: I think my definition of "Id" is a loose, poorly defined cousin of the technical one :) But otherwise, yes that's pretty much what I'm saying.