What annoys me about fanfic meta about itself

[alias_sqbr]

(separated out as a tangent from Old school fandom: Can we fix it?)

There's a difference between "here are some flaws in X group"/"Here are some awesome things about my group" (both of which are valid) and "Let's think about the differences between X and my group. Well.. X has all these flaws. And my group is awesome. Because we are awesome people, and they are flawed people (apart from the ones who eventually realise how awesome we are and change sides)."

There is a jump from "there is an undertone of misogyny to some slash"/"There is an undertone of homophobia to some non-slashers behaviour" to "slashers are misogynistic"/"non-slashers are homophobic" to "If you really cared you'd write (fem)slash"(*).

One of things which made me feel excluded from fanfic fandom for years was this attitude that "A lot of fanfic works this way"->"This is What Fanfic Is"->"Everything that is not This sucks and is probably written and enjoyed by misogynistic and/or dull men". Yes, a lot of fanfic takes canon characters and puts them into a romance, but that doesn't mean that I'm Missing The Point of fanfic if I take the setting and write gen about some original characters. And the fact that male dominated fandom tends to be sexist and dismissive of fanfic doesn't mean there's a direct correlation between having tastes in line with conventional fandom and being sexist/narrowminded. Acting this way means female fans with "male" tastes get treated badly in both fandoms.

I'm not sure I've ever seen any "Let's compare stuff from fanfic fandom to equivalent stuff made by people outside" meta that didn't spend every second paragraph talking about how much more awesome and creative and feminist and postmodern "our" stuff is.

One of the things about online fandom (especially on lj) is it's much bigger and more finely delineated which makes it easier to avoid really obnoxious people and create your own space but also makes it easy forget that your like-minded friendslist is not all there is to fandom. When I see a comment like Ursula LeGuin fans could demonstrate a little of the progressive social values of Stargate:Atlantis fans I have to wonder if they count all the fans in mainstream male dominated fandom who think Teyla is hot and enjoy the explosions or whatever. And if they don't count, why don't I get to redefine "Ursula LeGuin" fans the same way? (And here I start shading into my next post :))

nb: I realise one of things fanfic meta does is tend to focus exclusively on fanfic (and specifically, boyslash) to the exclusion of other sorts of fannish creativity and I've kind of done that here. I guess I can't break out of the very mindset I'm criticising!

(*)These arguments annoyed me a lot less once I wrote some femslash, since now I'm one irrational-smug-moral-superiority level above the smug m/m slash writers :)

Comments

[ataxi.livejournal.com]

The whole idea of defining a whole human being by reference to their participation in one narrow fandom is rather horrifying don't you think?

Either it's true, and that person actually is - the horrifying thought - entirely pigeonholed by their obsession with (say) Le Guin, or (say) Trek, or it's a fallacious and intellectually bankrupt piece of nonsense that has no place in a serious debate.

Part of the point of discussing prejudice is to escape the uncritical leap from one attribute to another pivoting on a (taken as read, unspoken) stereotype.

Hypothesis that occurs to me: fanfic is partly about assigning archetypes to fictional characters. Could it be that this leads naturally towards an intellectual framework in which archetypes are assigned to "fictional" (i.e. misconstructed) real people?

[emma-in-oz.livejournal.com]

Ursula LeGuin fans could demonstrate a little of the progressive social values of Stargate:Atlantis fans

You are very good to write thoughtfully about this rather than just dismissing it as I have - idiotic definitions of categories at the beginning => argument without merit.

[http://users.livejournal.com/peasant_/]

I have from time to time met people who try to define what fanfic Is and get very upset with other people if they then don't write within those narrow boundaries. Indeed some of the most spectacular rows I have been involved with online have revolved around just that question. So if your formative experience of ficcers was of that sort of person - and especially if it was falling foul of that sort of person, then you have my sympathy. I don't know why it is so important to them to define fanfic so narrowly, but it clearly is for some reason, and some of them can get extraordinarily aggressive and unpleasant about it.

Meanwhile, people continue to write whatever the hell they want in whatever the hell way they want, as they always will. Thank God.

how much more awesome and creative and feminist and postmodern "our" stuff is
:snort:
Well one thing I can say with pride is nobody has ever accused my work of being feminist or postmodern. And the only person to ever call it misogynistic was me (I should know). I sometimes wish I could take the average metafandomer by the hand and lead them out to show them just how much of fandom - their fandom, all those female ficcers and viders and so forth - not only didn't care about all the stuff they talk about but don't even have a clue it is going on, or if they do have an inkling make a very conscious decision not to notice as far as possible. Fandom isn't a progressive social movement, its a bunch of people enjoying their hobbies.

[hlbr.livejournal.com]

Fandom isn't a progressive social movement, its a bunch of people enjoying their hobbies.

But can't it be both? I mean, I find the fact that not only the production of artworks (fiction, videos, music...) is now more accessible, but that their distribution also is, a very progressive social movement! It's decentralizing the collective imagination, sort of. I like it.

I don't know how feminist it is, I don't know how postmodern, but I very much appreciate the fact that many people who wouldn't have thought about writing and sharing that writing with others are doing so. And that's only what I live, because I'm a writer/beta/translator, and have practically no contact with the vidding community, for example, but I'm sure this happens across the board.

I also am incredibly appreciative of the fact that fandom (and the 'net in general--but I live it through fandom) is an international community that feels like a community.

I don't know, I think both of those are pretty revolutionary things.

[alias_sqbr]

I don't think fanfic fandom is any worse at this sort of pigeonholing than anyone else: witness the way regular people stereotype all fans, or the way mainstream fans pigeonhole fanfic writers (a bunch of 12 year old girls and bored housewives etc) The thing that started this conversation was mainstream Old School sf fans being amazingly reductive and narrow minded about who counts as a fan, dismissing people because they read fanfic or used livejournal or were offended by racism (a sure sign you're just unable to appreciate the tropes of fantasy, you see).

It's just that the most recent annoying stuff I read was by fanfic fans, so that's what I feel like ranting about :)

[alias_sqbr]

I guess I've seen these categories used enough to be able to sigh to myself and continue, but it took several years of "Who exactly do you mean by 'media' fandom? These categories are dumb!"

[ataxi.livejournal.com]

"were offended by racism (a sure sign you're just unable to appreciate the tropes of fantasy, you see)"

Well, there's something to be said for the view that being able to see past prejudice ... in a book ... doesn't automatically make you prejudiced yourself.

You're right though, the lazy generalisations are all over. My hypothesis is wrong, although I do think that in fanfic there's interchange between the hobby itself and the meta-discussion.

[alias_sqbr]

I agree with hele that I think there are aspects to fanfic fandom which tie in with social justice: the fact there's so many women makes it a lot easier to discuss feminist ideas than you can in mainstream fandom, it creates more space for international communication (between the three of us we circle the globe :)), allows for groups like FOC to organise, etc.

But the fact that it creates space for those things, and is perhaps (though perhaps not) more feminist etc in general doesn't mean that that's all there is to fanfic fandom, that people who aren't interested in those things are Doing It Wrong(*), that people who aren't in fanfic fandom can be assumed to be unfeminist etc, or that fanfic fans can be smug about how awesome they are if they haven't done anything particularly worthy as an individual.

Which is to say: I don't think that Fandom, overall, is a progressive social movement. I think that by it's existence it can have some progressive social effects, and create a network that helps those who are trying to create a social progressive movement, but most people do just see it as a hobby and there's nothing wrong with that.

(*)I mean if someone writes sexist fic or whatever then I think that's bad, but it's not inherently less fanficcish.

[alias_sqbr]

I think fanfic fandom is one of those things where the majority of people aren't doing it out of any revolutionary agenda, they're just pursuing their own personal joy, but as a group we end up creating revolutionary things. Some people are actively pursuing political/social justice etc agendas, and I think the structure and culture of fanfic fandom can be really helpful to that, but you can't assume that your average fanfic fan cares about this sort of thing or is particularly progressive or whatever.

(Which is not to disagree with anything you said, just to riff on it)

[http://users.livejournal.com/peasant_/]

Oh I thoroughly agree that fandom is taking part in revolutionary things. The internet is changing vast amounts of human experience in exciting ways, and fandom is undoubtedly part of that and using it. What I'm having a poke at are the type of metafandom commenters who seem to imply that every time a woman sits down and writes a bit of fic she is making some specific social statement rather than just having fun. To me, the word 'feminist' would have to imply a deliberate choice to try to advance the causes and aims of feminism (as opposed to just something that women happen to be doing). Post-modern is a far more difficult term because it can mean almost anything, but it does at the very least seem to imply a reaction against... something, and again I doubt if any serious proportion of fandom are reacting against anything at all. So while I agree that fandom is producing revolutionary things, that is a coincidental by-product of being involved in a revolutionary medium, not an inherent part of fandoms aims, and I do think that distinction is important.

Besides, the 'people telling stories about other people's stories' part of fandom is as old as stories themselves, and since women have always been doing it as well as men, that part at least isn't exactly revolutionary.

I also am incredibly appreciative of the fact that fandom (and the 'net in general--but I live it through fandom) is an international community that feels like a community.
Fandom has some similarities to RL communities, but it also lacks the organisational structures, especially many of the control structures, that we are used to in RL communities. That is one of several reasons, I think, why when stuff on the net goes bad it can go spectacularly bad. It is also one of the reasons it feels so liberating and exciting being on-line - there aren't many equivalent spaces where adults can play safely without much in the way of boundaries or consequences.

When I first came on-line (2001, for the record) I was blown away by the internationalism. Then I gradually became aware that being in ready daily contact with other nationalities can throw up some pretty glaring fault lines and that there are even bigger absences in who we are actually talking to. It has made me aware of what being British means in a way that I had never thought about before, and also about being part of the Anglosphere, the Western hegemony, and so forth. And these days I think of my on-line friends far less as part of an international community than just a group of friends who have some specific cultural things in common. Nothing wrong with that, and its great fun, but it isn't what I would define as truly international beyond the most trivial definition.

Which may mean I'm contradicting myself by holding one standard to one half of this conversation and another to the second half. :rolls eyes at self:

[hlbr.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I don't actually think the general of fans are doing it with any agenda but having fun (and some, improving at their crafts, or getting feedback, or whatever). I--who by other measures do think myself as political--don't consider my involvement on fandom to be political in itself. I enjoy doing it, that's why I do it. It's not untouched by my political ideas, of course, but it's not entirely ruled by them.

Which is to say, yes, I agree. Heh.

[http://users.livejournal.com/peasant_/]

I think my answer to hele has pretty much covered this (in other words: I agree).

I mean if someone writes sexist fic or whatever then I think that's bad, but it's not inherently less fanficcish.

That is actually an interesting question, because I undoubtedly write sexist fic - and when I started I was doing it accidentally without any real notion of what I was doing or why. But lately I have come to realise that the sexism is a very important part of what I am enjoying about fanfic, and hence I am pushing those boundaries, exploring gender by being deliberately sexists and seeing what happens. I know a few feminists who would have a fit if they saw my current stuff - and a few who would smile quietly and say 'now P's getting it'. And beyond just me (fascinating as I am ;) I think I can see signs of that in other people's work. I am beginning to suspect that one of the many revolutionary things going on in the fic community (I really have no experience of art or vids) is a reaction against PC and hence people are exploring beyond the boundaries of what is acceptable in every way - not just the commonly defined social norms but the newer social norms of PC, social justice, call it what you will.

But it is happening as a by-product of having fun, of just people writing what they want to write, normally without too much thought about why they are doing it, which in many ways makes it far stronger. Because let's face it, nobody has ever really managed to make writers write anything other than the things they naturally and instinctively wanted to write anyway, least of all the writers themselves.

Which brings us back to to your comment. If somebody actually wanted to use fanfic as a medium for social change, they would fail. Because fanfic is too free, too uncontrollable, too independent of anything, and that most certainly includes any social justice activists who might fancy using it for their own agendas. But social change is still a by-product of fanfic, and since the general drift of society is in that direction, fanfic will be swept along in the tide and become part of furthering the causes of social justice. But it might do so in some very unexpected ways.

[hlbr.livejournal.com]

I do know that telling stories to each other is old as humanity, but, you know, I don't think the common (wo)man (by a very lax definition of common--I will touch upon this below) had access to distributing those stories to so many people and from so many places and ages before. That's... powerful in itself, to me. It does mean that the power of shaping the stories, the fiction, is more on the hands of the people.

Now, taking on this 'common men' nonsense, of course it isn't yet. The field has widened, but there's still a long way to go.

Oh, the communities I'm in feel very much like RL communities! Stringent laws and changes in powers, and some with more horizontal power schemes than others, but I'm aware that perhaps that's different in lj? That everyone has their own turf here must change things. But I'm only based on lj for a convenience issue. My only friends here are those I know for other means (in dw I'm getting more into the the journaling communities, but not that much).

It doesn't feel very consequences-less or any of that. It felt like that when I lurked, but then I wasn't acting, to have any consequences. When I began to participate, everything came into a sharper relief. Not to get personal nor any of that--but feeling at odds with my online communities felt as bad as it feels being at odds with my family. (I've never been at odds with other RL communities.) Perhaps I'm an oddity and I'm taking everything too seriously--it wouldn't be weird--but that's how I live it.

International wise... I don't know what is the lack you're feeling? I have betaed for Chinese, Indian, American, Chilean, English and Australian people, and been betaed by Polish, American, Belgian, and Spanish people. I read people of all those places (most in English, some in Spanish), and talk with people from all these places. My two best buddies are my own age (exactly to the year!) but one in Portland and the other in Barcelona (I'm in Buenos Aires)--every time we chat together it means two of us are desperately late for their bedtime.

And yes, that the language be English does impose some limits--but what else would you do, with an international community? You need a common language to talk. At some point French was used. I have no problems with that--I have had French in high school and I'm sure I could get it back. Or Chinese, which is the language of the world's majority; I sure would want to learn the language of our** new overlords. I wouldn't mind. But English it is, by history and current politics. It's not even my language, and yes it's deeply problematic that I'm losing proficiency (somewhat) in my own language because I spend so much of my time writing and reading in English, but... I prefer the international community to perfect proficiency in my mother language. Truly.

**Argentina's. A joke.

[alias_sqbr]

I do think that in fanfic there's interchange between the hobby itself and the meta-discussion

Maaaaybe. But from what I've experienced, and what I know of fanfic fandom history, the internal divisions and differences have been and are as big as those between fanfic fandom "as a whole" and any other sort of fandom (and most of this discussion only concentrates on one particular, very vocal, subset of fanfic fandom). Jane Austen fanfic, for example, is this whole other world.

[alias_sqbr]

:)

[alias_sqbr]

I am beginning to suspect that one of the many revolutionary things going on in the fic community (I really have no experience of art or vids) is a reaction against PC and hence people are exploring beyond the boundaries of what is acceptable in every way - not just the commonly defined social norms but the newer social norms of PC, social justice, call it what you will.

Heh. I have this whole rant about the twin meanings of PC as "Basic human decency with regards to caring about the effect of your words on other people" and "Counterproductive dogma". This is particularly relevant to "sexist" fanfic by women since it messes so much with the id, for example some feminists define anything pornographic as sexist and evil, while others define anything pornographic by and for women as feminist, and both decry the other as "sexist" and/or "too PC". But yes, fanfic does give us all a chance to explore things which would be condemned elsewhere (for whatever reason, and for good or ill)

But social change is still a by-product of fanfic, and since the general drift of society is in that direction, fanfic will be swept along in the tide and become part of furthering the causes of social justice. But it might do so in some very unexpected ways.

Agreed.

That said, I think people can use their own fanfic for social justice, same way as they can use music or art or whatever. They just can't use ALL of fanfic fandom.

[http://users.livejournal.com/peasant_/]

(Disclaimer: I am hugely brain tired today, but I need to answer because I will be very short of time starting next week and I don't want to leave it until I am time rich again.)

I think people can use their own fanfic for social justice, same way as they can use music or art or whatever. They just can't use ALL of fanfic fandom.

Agreed. Nobody can steer the herd, whether from outside or within it, but they personally can run whichever way they want, and sometimes the herd will chose to turn with them. All anyone can do is try and see what happens.

I have this whole rant about the twin meanings of PC as "Basic human decency with regards to caring about the effect of your words on other people" and "Counterproductive dogma".
I think it is one sign of how far we have come that a lot of stuff that twenty years ago was considered PC is now classed under 'bleeding obvious requirement of good manners' and the term PC is left lumbered with some pretty fringe weird and wonderful dogma.

I look forward to reading your rant some day.

This is particularly relevant to "sexist" fanfic by women since it messes so much with the id
I have to admit I am having trouble understanding this sentence. If you could unpack it I would be grateful.

[aquaeri.livejournal.com]

Well, there's something to be said for the view that being able to see past prejudice ... in a book ... doesn't automatically make you prejudiced yourself.

Just because I'm in a pissy mood and have recently committed WhiteFail myself, would you like to actually say that something, so I can see if I find it remotely convincing?

(alternatively, does this belong on DW, Sophia?)

[aquaeri.livejournal.com]

I just want to note I find this comment interesting and thought-provoking, but I'm holding myself back partly because I'm currently trying to avoid getting into metafandom discussions which have spun off RaceFail that aren't about race. I think there's a big overlap in stuff I agree with you and disagree with you about. But not really about race - except as you note that the oh-so "international" fandom net is heavily anglophone and anglophone-nations dominated.

rec

[aquaeri.livejournal.com]

I think you'd find ellen_fremedom's ideas about the Id Vortex very relevant.
http://ellen-fremedon.livejournal.com/325780.html
It'll possibly help you understand Sophie when she talks about the id, too.

[ataxi.livejournal.com]

If you want someone to slam, perhaps you'd be just as happy doing it on the "evidence" that's currently before you.

The term "WhiteFail" is stupid by the way.

no race, but I think I'm allowed here

[aquaeri.livejournal.com]

I've also noticed this "if it's not Our Kind Of Fic, it's not real fic" thing, particularly around slash, particularly when others start asking exactly how feminist slash is.

Anyway, because I have noticed this thing about slash being the true fanfic, or least near the core of fanfic, I had to think about it in relation to myself. Now I don't read much fic, and I don't write any. Of the stuff I've read, slash does not do anything more for me than het or gen (I've not read femslash enough to have an opinion on it). While I've never actually written fanfic, I'm very sympathetic to it (particularly the feminist issues) because I realised at some point that when I was a child, nearly every book I read that I engaged with that didn't have a strong female character, I'd invent one and rework the story in my head to include her. In other words, I think I was creating Mary Sue fanfic that never got written down.

And I think I'm sort of reluctant to actually write fanfic as an adult, because that childhood experience gives me a reasonably good view of what kind of Id Vortex I'm going to be spiralling around, and Mary Sue has an incredibly bad rep in fandom. Whereas slash, which is the (to my mind) other obvious option for getting some strong emotional/romantic/sexual charge into stories that only have strong male characters, is near the core of fandom and takes itself perhaps a bit too seriously.

What if the feminist aspect of fanfic is the female id trying to deal with the fact that too much "approved mainstream" storytelling doesn't have strong female characters to identify with? What if some women respond by identifying with the strong male characters and writing slash, and others of us respond by inventing strong female characters and getting laughed at for writing Mary Sues? What if the approval of slash and disapproval of Mary Sues is a kind of internal sexist self-policing of fandom, as in 'we can't let this notion get too far out of hand and start thinking women actually deserve strong female characters to identify with'? (or, 'unless "approved mainstream" storytelling actually gives us those strong female characters').

This has been brought on also by I think truepenny recently writing about how all her really interesting characters are male because somehow she's learnt that female characters aren't interesting, and I thought both: "that's so sad" and "that actually makes a lot of sense (but only if you weren't the kind of girl who automatically invented strong female characters for all the stories that didn't have them)".

And doesn't this just serve to maintain the hegemony that men are interesting and women can safely be ignored as characters, when even some published women authors find themselves reluctant to write female characters? And to the extent that authors learn by writing fanfic, and women in general consume fanfic, isn't it problematic that we now have a fanfic culture that tends to enforce the writing of male characters by preference? (Let alone how all this affects all those boys who are never exposed to strong female characters because it'd stunt their manly growth or something - note I don't believe this but I get the impression the movie and publishing industries do.)

Actually, I can map this back to race, in the sense that while I on the one hand don't feel I have a specially strong female gender identity (defined as "I'd be very surprised if I woke up physically male tomorrow but I think I'd cope and wouldn't be desperate for surgery to change me back") it's clear that for me, female characters have always been tremendously important, so I figure they are for a lot of other women as well, and I imagine a lot of PoC would like more PoC characters in exactly the same way. (Actually, I don't just imagine, I know based on how PoC have written about watching Uhura on TV in the 1960s and reading about Ged in the 1970s (Wizard of Earthsea).) And if there are PoC writing disproportionately white characters because they've absorbed the idea that white characters are more interesting (or get to survive!), it becomes all the more important for white authors to write PoC characters, if we're going to have any chance of changing any of this anytime remotely soonish.

[ataxi.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry for the tone of the previous comment (I would delete it but don't want to appear to be engaged in a cover-up or anything). I suspect you weren't inviting that sort of response, or were perhaps on the rebound from some other site of conflict.

I hope you can understand the irritation I felt when you started in with "just because I'm in a pissy mood ...". Let alone inviting me to argue a point just on the off chance you find it "remotely" convincing.

I'm not a wind-up toy that exists for your amusement when you happen to be in a foul frame of mind. You need to take a step back from the internet wars and imagine what kind of person I might actually be prior to judging me.

[alias_sqbr]

I actually don't think there's anything untrue about ataxi's statement (eg there's plenty of sexism I am able to see past in books I like), the problem is that it's the converse of my statement rather than the contrapositive and thus not so much a refutation as a sidetrack. I thought about calling him on it but I decided that simply refusing to be sidetracked was as good a response (perhaps it wasn't)

Still, I do agree with ataxi that the way you expressed yourself didn't invite a very productive discussion on the subject :P

alternatively, does this belong on DW

I posted this here by default without thinking since it's fanfic meta first, gender etc meta second. But in retrospect, maybe, but I don't think there's much to be gained by moving it now.

(Also, it's not that big a deal, but I have a lifelong Thing against people calling me "Sophia" since it's not my name and people often assume it is. See also "Sarah", for some reason :))

[alias_sqbr]

See my response to aquaeri above (below?): I think your statement was flawed, but I agree that "I'm in a bad mood, say that again so I can tell you you're wrong" isn't a very helpful or engaging criticism. And thankyou for stepping back from an all out snark war.