Spoilery Star Wars thoughts!

[alias_sqbr]

SPOILERS!!!!

*************SPOILERS*********
So, first some very mild spoilers I wouldn't have minded knowing going in, for anyone who can't help themselves but doesn't really want to be spoiled. TURN BACK WHILE YOU STILL CAN.

There is no Jar Jar, unless he was in major disguise. None of the villains are Luke in disguise.

The head villain is some random dude who looks like Gollum and is voiced by Andy Serkis which was very unfortunate on the designer's part, even if the voice is totally different. He only shows up via massive hologram which makes me think he's actually gollum sized because it amuses me.

The other pointless mystery was Lupita Nyong'o's character, who is a minor, sympathetic character coded (I would say) as Chinese. She was pretty endearing. I am choosing to believe she is not dead.

Gwendoline Christie's character never takes off her helmet! I was expecting to see her in the garbage chute looking grumpy but no. I may have to draw it.

***Ok now, really, SPOILERS.***

I also suspect of her of being secretly good, otherwise she just happened to help out Finn twice in a row: first by not wiping/re-educating etc him right away, and second by being so helpful with the shields. Surely she could have pretended to take down the shields, or had them only go down temporarily.

Finnnnnnnn I love him. A storm trooper finding his sense of self! And conscience! Though I was expecting slightly more reluctance to kill his former brethren, or at least a moment of "there but for the Grace of God The Force". And he's just so sweet and ever so slightly out of his depth. And John Boyega is very huggable.

REYYYYYYYY I LOVE HER MORE. I mean I liked her to start with, and how despite being worn down she still has that basic decency, and how clever she is in a way that makes perfect sense, but then when she WENT HEAD TO HEAD WITH KYLO REN AND WON OMG. That was just the best moment ever. And then FIGHTING. And being BADASS IN THE SNOW. Aaaaaah.

Kylo Ren himself is just the perfect angsty edgelord YOU CAN'T MAKE ME MOM baby sith omg. Like everyone else I thought his light sabre design was implausibly ridiculous but now I think it's perfect. In our world he would have an obnoxiously modded car that let off red sparks.

I can see Kylo Ren/Rey being the Zuko/Katara of this fandom, with added "anyone who doesn't ship Rey/Finn is racist" pushing against the inevitable "anyone who doesn't think Kylo Ren is a poor innocent woobie is pro bullying" etc. He's just such a Snape/Loki type figure, and very pretty. I must admit I ship it a little myself, when he offered to be her teacher omg. Though I ship it in a "have hate makeouts, push him off cliff, retire to the country with Finn and Poe" way. It would be even better if they were cousins, especially because I think anghraine might die of joy. (He can be optionally redeemed after he falls off the cliff)

In general I am ambivalent about Rey being a Skywalker. Was a bit thrown off that they didn't
have the bit from the trailer about "The Force runs in my family. I have it, my sister has it, and you have it" since I was waiting for it and then the movie ended!

(Poe is ok? I found him hard to get excited about but he's nice enough, and actually old enough for me to feel ok checking out)

I had the following conversation with Alice, who'd said she didn't mind spoilers. I had described Kylo Ren as like [her favourite character] from Undertale but sexy.

sqbr: ok, so I was annoyed that we saw WAY more of Han Solo than Leia
sqbr: like, WAAAY more
sqbr: and then
sqbr: they kill Han
sqbr: So
sqbr: it made sense
sqbr: she gets 2 more movies

Alice: what the FUCK

sqbr: and we had to get attached to him so it was sad when he died
sqbr: GUESS WHO KILLS HIM

Alice: do we know for sure he's dead?
Alice: is it lupita

sqbr: no
sqbr: HIS SON

Alice: WHAT THE FUCK

sqbr: SEXY EDGELORD

Alice: WHAT THE FUCK?????????????

:D

And yeah, I am hoping Leia gets more to do next time. I was pretty sad when Han died but it really worked. And then when Rey was flying the Falcon with Chewie ahhhhh. Did I mention I love her?

I wonder if the "Vader" Kylo Ren hears is actually the emperor, pretending. Because Anakin, for all his flaws, would never. There were theories that Kylo Ren simply didn't know the true story but now I can imagine him hearing it from Luke and thinking "So grandad was super powerful and doing great as a Sith, until he turned Light Side, at which point he died. Moral: stay Sith".

Blowing up an EVEN BIGGER DEATHSTAR was a bit on the nose. As Cam said they're going to need something ridiculously huge to blow up in episode 9. I feel like you could line the plot beats up to a New Hope and have many of them match, especially at the end. But I can't deny that I enjoyed it. Sign me up for episode 8 :)

Comments

[lizbee]

I'm calling it now: fandom will be flooded with lots of Kylo Ren/Poe Dameron and Kylo/Rey, while a small but noisy minority point out that Finn is a perfect cinnamon roll, too good, too pure, etc. (Which, so far, he is.)

I also predict there'll be debate about whether Rey should be a Skywalker, given that we already have Kylo, and there will be excellent reasons why we shouldn't need space (almost) royalty to make a character special. But they won't compete with my id, which is just really into lost and found biological families.

I liked that, on Han's death, Chewie got the MY GIRL HAS BEEN FRIDGED moment of setting everything on fire. Don't fridge a Wookiee's human, guys.

[bunny_m]

It was good to see Chewie get a bit of a rage on, though personally I would have liked to see him get to throw a few Stormtroopers into the bottomless pit as well.

Just add a couple of seconds of 3-4 Stormtroopers running up to him during that bit and him just picking them all up and tossing them into the darkness. Could have been another Stormie with whatever that weird weapon Finn had his arse handed to him with.

I also predict there'll be debate about whether Rey should be a Skywalker, given that we already have Kylo, and there will be excellent reasons why we shouldn't need space (almost) royalty to make a character special. But they won't compete with my id, which is just really into lost and found biological families.

Although we are on different sides of the 'Rey should/should not be a Skywalker' debate, it seems, you can't argue with head-canon/the id.

Respect.

[lizbee]

Although we are on different sides of the 'Rey should/should not be a Skywalker' debate, it seems, you can't argue with head-canon/the id.

Intellectually, I agree with you! My brain is quite appalled at my heart and id.

[bunny_m]

As an author I read once wisely noted: You can't help what you want, you can only choose how you act based on those wants.

[alias_sqbr]

*quietly fixes all the names after forgetting to check them*

I must admit part of me sees the appeal of Poe/Kylo Ren just because they're the two hottest characters, being the only 30 somethings. But their dynamic was just so dull.

I really want Rey to find her family and for it to be this big emotionally complicated thing, but don't need them to be Skywalkers for that, even if it's the most straightforward way to achieve that.

I liked that, on Han's death, Chewie got the MY GIRL HAS BEEN FRIDGED moment of setting everything on fire. Don't fridge a Wookiee's human, guys.

Yeah, me too!

[whatistigerbalm]

"He only shows up via massive hologram which makes me think he's actually gollum sized because it amuses me."

HA that was exactly what I was thinking!

[bunny_m]

The thought of Snoke being physically small hadn't occurred to me, but that sort deliberately huge and overpowering set up really screams 'compensation', doesn't it?

With his distorted and damaged features he came across as non-human to me, which is odd in retrospect given the blatant Humans ONLY line that both the First Order and the Empire were/are so invested in.

I *really* hope they don't go with the tired old trope Someone on the 'Good Guys' Side had a hand in his injuries and thus he has Created Evil Organisation to Punish and Avenge Himself.

They probably will though, if Snoke ever gets any sort of motivations at all.

[alias_sqbr]

If he was left as literally the only dark side force user after the events of Return of the Jedi I imagine the flailing, headless remains of the Empire might have found they didn't mind aliens after all.

He may be like the Emporer and received his injures as a sort of karmic punishment for previous evil. Which is still pretty unfortunate but slightly less annoying.

[alias_sqbr]

Or like that 10cm high demon from Buffy.

[bunny_m]

WARNING: Long Comment is LOOOOONG.

The other pointless mystery was Lupita Nyong'o's character, who is a minor, sympathetic character coded (I would say) as Chinese. She was pretty endearing. I am choosing to believe she is not dead.

I, likewise, choose to believe that she's not dead. They made a point of saying she'd run that place for a thousand years, so clearly she's not easily killed. I liked her and her role in the plot, with the exception of her just happening to have Luke's light-sabre. One of several moments of Because Plot that annoyed the hell out of me.

(See also: Han and Chewie, who supposedly must have been searching for the Falcon for *years*, just happen to find it at the exact moment that Finn and Rey are taking a break from escaping in it to perform some urgent repairs. Also: If a string of petty crime-lords have stolen it from each other, why was it lying neglected by everyone on Jakku and never flown? And yet somehow still perfectly able to take off at a moment whilst being shot at. Because Plot.)

Gwendoline Christie's character never takes off her helmet! I was expecting to see her in the garbage chute looking grumpy but no. I may have to draw it.

I *so* want to see this. That was one of the shout-outs to the original film that I thought worked perfectly.

I also suspect of her of being secretly good, otherwise she just happened to help out Finn twice in a row: first by not wiping/re-educating etc him right away, and second by being so helpful with the shields. Surely she could have pretended to take down the shields, or had them only go down temporarily.

This works for me. Here's hoping they do something with depth for the character, at least.

Finnnnnnnn I love him. A storm trooper finding his sense of self! And conscience! Though I was expecting slightly more reluctance to kill his former brethren, or at least a moment of "there but for the Grace of God The Force". And he's just so sweet and ever so slightly out of his depth. And John Boyega is very huggable.

Yeah, I liked how he grew from some poor bastard that was clearly utterly out of his depth and decided to run away from the First Order, the only thing he's ever known, and was still smart enough to know that he first had to have some way off of the ship, and bold/brave enough to grab the first enemy pilot that came his way to do so.

A bit of reluctance to start killing Stormtroopers would have been nice, as you say.

REYYYYYYYY I LOVE HER MORE. I mean I liked her to start with, and how despite being worn down she still has that basic decency, and how clever she is in a way that makes perfect sense, but then when she WENT HEAD TO HEAD WITH KYLO REN AND WON OMG. That was just the best moment ever. And then FIGHTING. And being BADASS IN THE SNOW. Aaaaaah.

Rey's character arc, (which was the only one other than Finn's that I actually felt any emotional engagement for), suffered, for me, because it so closely followed that of Luke in ANH.

I really hope that they don't make Rey related to Luke or Leia in any way at all. I like the idea that sometimes across all the worlds and peoples in the SW galaxy, there just pop up random people that are really powerful in the force, and they don't have to be tied into some pre-established bloodline. It's a really big galaxy, I dislike it when all of the big stories are somehow all about this one magical family.

As for her taking on and beating Ben (twice!) despite being fresh to The Force and him being experienced in it:

Ben is quite clearly really overconfident in his abilities, and I don't think he's actually very well trained at all. At the end of the screening some people nearby were complaining about that exact point, but we are never told that Ben is actually strong in The Force, we just see him using some of them. He's clearly not on par with Vader, or likely even Obi-Wan or Luke. In fact, him being kinda weak/middling in The Force would be a good reason for him to do his dummy-spit and turn to the Dark Side, killing the other trainees. I don't think Snoke has much, if any, actual strength in The Force. He almost certainly makes a big deal about how Incredibly Powerful he is, but I think he has very minor powers, if any. And he clearly hasn't actually trained Ben very much, and has probably been stringing him along with promise of the final Awesomely Powerful training seminar, once Ben runs around and does a few (dozen) annoying side-quests for him first.

You know what I'd love to see? Luke and Ben's final face-off, after Luke let's him get the inevitable monologue out of his system about how he's now So Much More Powerful Than He Used To Be, and How Much Stronger The Dark Side Is, and then Luke just force-throws him up against the wall, casually cuts off the hand holding his stupid lightsabre, (as is the tradition in their family), and says "You always were weak, Ben."

Alice: do we know for sure he's dead?

Stabbed through the gut/torso with the full length of a lightsabre, fell into a Bottomless Pit (what is it with SF and never having railings for this sort of thing?) on a super-weapon/planet that then exploded?

There is *no* coming back from that. Our boy is D-E-D-dead.

Plus there was the shot of Leia reacting to his death. Han is more dead than Qui-Gon, Anakin or Yoda.

Poe is ok? I found him hard to get excited about but he's nice enough

Yeah, Poe I never felt any real attachment too. I felt like the movie spent too much time at the start telling us that he was this really-shit-hot pilot without really showing us that, but then during the battle at the watering-hole, and again at the attack on the thermal regulator (though not quite as much) actually showed us that he really is a *VERY* good pilot.

Which only makes the decision to send him off, alone, at the start to pick up some vital secret info even dumber. You don't send your bestest pilot for that sort of thing, you send your most trusted minion with a good but not the very best team of heavies to protect them.

You can be damn certain that the First Order keep tabs on where Poe is whenever possible because he is that much of a danger to them. It's probably why they were able to show up at such an awkward time for the Resistance.

As an aside, I really liked the updated TIE fighter design, which superficially looked basically the same, but are much more dangerous now with the extra firepower and a dedicated gunner.

Sure, it was mainly a plot device so that they could have both Finn and Poe work together at escaping rather than Finn being a dead weight crammed into a small cockpit, but still, I like this change.

Kylo Ren himself is just the perfect angsty edgelord YOU CAN'T MAKE ME MOM baby sith omg. Like everyone else I thought his light sabre design was implausibly ridiculous but now I think it's perfect. In our world he would have an obnoxiously modded car that let off red sparks.

I *loathed* the design of Ren's lightsabre when the first teaser came out, and I still do, but this take on him makes it, not acceptable, but a good marker for his character over all. It's flashy, deliberately different to stand out, despite said difference actually being a weakness.

It's someone so desperate to stand out he's weakened his own weapon just so that he's clearly not with anyone else. I totally agree with the car analogy. He'd also make sure it had a super-loud engine/modded muffler/tailpipe, even though it lessened the power of said car. Because, ultimately, he's a shallow little creep.

I can see Kylo Ren/Rey being the Zuko/Katara of this fandom, with added "anyone who doesn't ship Rey/Finn is racist" pushing against the inevitable "anyone who doesn't think Kylo Ren is a poor innocent woobie is pro bullying" etc.

Oh, gods, I hadn't considered this, but it *is* inevitable that there are going to be Rey/Kylo(Ben) shippers, and I am going to hate every single one of them. The 'poor innocent woobie' line already makes me want to throttle anyone that would honestly believe that.

Ben/Kylo has been clearly marked as irredeemable by the end of TFA. He slaughtered all the other Jedi trainees (in the flashback), and damaged Luke so emotionally that he ran thousands of light-years away to hide for years!

And then, because he kept being tempted to not be an utter whiny little evil dickhead, he tricked and murdered his own father.

Anakin's/Vader's redemption at the end of RotJ is already pretty on the nose after we see him calmly and deliberately murdering dozens of younglings/children in RotS (Not to mention the Separatist leaders and the attempts on Padme and Obi-Wan.)

Kylo should now be completely irredeemable. No more of this 'try to turn him back to the Light Side' crap, from this point forward he should be treated as a dangerous and rabid dog and put down. He deliberately took advantage of the chance his own father gave him (reluctantly, IMO) and used it to perform another unforgivable betrayal.

I wonder if the "Vader" Kylo Ren hears is actually the emperor, pretending. Because Anakin, for all his flaws, would never. There were theories that Kylo Ren simply didn't know the true story but now I can imagine him hearing it from Luke and thinking "So grandad was super powerful and doing great as a Sith, until he turned Light Side, at which point he died. Moral: stay Sith".

I never got any feeling that Ben even thought he was hearing voices from Vader. To me it was always him talking to himself whilst gazing on his grandfather's melted mask. Because of course he's utterly self-absorbed, just like Anakin was. (Like Luke was at the very start of ANH, but Luke grew the hell up in a hurry.)

Except, of course, Ben doesn't get the excuse of having a truly shitty childhood upbringing that Anakin had, and if there was any of the shitty political posturing and manipulation that Yoda/Palpatine were engaged in over Anakin's adolescence, we've seen no hint of it.

I have faith that although Leia and Han were not the best parents ever, they really did everything in their power to give him the best possible childhood. Between them, Luke, Threepio and Artoo, I'm pretty certain he had a pretty good childhood, actually. And then he went and pissed it away for some petty, probably petulant reason.

In general I am ambivalent about Rey being a Skywalker. Was a bit thrown off that they didn't have the bit from the trailer about "The Force runs in my family. I have it, my sister has it, and you have it" since I was waiting for it and then the movie ended!

Pretty sure that line was never meant to be aimed at Rey. To me, it's quite clear that Ben/Kylo is the person Luke was talking to.

Personally, I liked that Luke didn't get a single line, and only one very brief scene at the very end of the movie. The silent anguish on his face as Rey offers him his lightsabre, and symbolically the burden of being the sole hope for a resurgent Jedi Order, AGAIN, was perfectly done. It was the perfect scene and tone to end the movie on, IMO.

[alias_sqbr]

Yeah the coincidences are just silly, especially them HAPPENING to find the Millenium Falcon. Come on.

In fact, him being kinda weak/middling in The Force would be a good reason for him to do his dummy-spit and turn to the Dark Side, killing the other trainees. I don't think Snoke has much, if any, actual strength in The Force. He almost certainly makes a big deal about how Incredibly Powerful he is, but I think he has very minor powers, if any. And he clearly hasn't actually trained Ben very much, and has probably been stringing him along with promise of the final Awesomely Powerful training seminar, once Ben runs around and does a few (dozen) annoying side-quests for him first.

Yeah, this makes a lot of sense. He's Darth Vader's grandson why isn't he the best??

A point where we disagree: I think the thing with Anakin's redemption and and Kylo Ren being offered the chance for one is that it's not about them, it's about the people forgiving them. If Anakin hadn't been so terrible, Luke forgiving him and persuading him to help wouldn't have felt so meaningful. Similarly, the morality of the film means Han and Leia have to try to persuade Kylo Ren to be good, even if they fail (but... maybe not in a way that makes it easy for him to kill them. There's forgiveness, and then there's foolhardiness) Because the films are about being a particular kind of person: forgiving, selfless, not giving into anger etc. (While also wallowing in violence because the morality presented is rather shallow)

Now if Anakin had redeemed himself and then lived to have a happy ending then his previous misdeeds would be more relevant, because much of the audience would feel it was unfair. But he dies. I guess he's a happy looking ghost but still. Dead. And personally I'd be ok with a Kylo Ren "redemption" of around that level.

[bunny_m]

Yeah, this makes a lot of sense. He's Darth Vader's grandson why isn't he the best??

Ha! That's an angle I hadn't noticed! I *love* it!

I felt that it was pretty clearly portrayed that Han felt the best option would have been to just blast Ben and not mess about trying to bring him back, but made the (one, last?) effort despite his feelings because Leia asked him to.

Certainly the scenes before Han walked up to Ben on the walkway had a real feel of 'I should really just shoot you now' in Han's expression/body language, IMHO.

the morality of the film means Han and Leia have to try to persuade Kylo Ren to be good, even if they fail

Well, the *Jedi* morality is definitely strongly suggesting, if not quite outright demanding that they make the attempt, no matter his crimes. But then between the prequels especially, the fiction and the games, it's become really clear, especially in the past decade or so, that the Jedi philosophy isn't necessarily the paragon of virtue it likes to think it is/promote itself as.

Han's background and life, though, has mostly of pragmatic and less-than-scrupled survival decisions. He's got very different ideas of redemption and forgiveness than Leia and Luke do, and it felt like he would have been perfectly willing to just blow off Ben's head from around a pillar with Chewie's bowcaster.

He'd be heartbroken, sure, but he's been heartbroken about that kid for years, anyway.

I'd also argue that Vader's redemption in RotJ required that he sacrifice himself to obtain it. Simply turning his back on the Emperor wouldn't have cut it, he had to actually *do* something about the Empire he'd helped create, and it had to be something pretty darn big.

Which was why Ben was never going to calmly say "Okay, Dad, I'll come home with you" and walk away from the First Order. Which in turn meant that it was obvious from the moment that he walked out onto that walkway that he was drawing his father out there to betray him again and murder him.

For me, that obviousness utterly spoiled any impact that there was meant to be in that scene.

[alias_sqbr]

Cam's theory is that they telgraphed it so heavily so that noone was shocked, heartbroken, and then went chasing after JJ's head :)

[bunny_m]

That's an interesting theory.

Works for me, but doesn't mean I'm any happier with the movie.

[owlmoose]

Many good thoughts here. I also hope that Leia and Captain Phasma get more to do in future movies, and I would also enjoy seeing artwork of Phasma in that garbage chute. :)

I'm going to buck the trend and say that I hope that Rey is a Skywalker, even if it is cliche, because I think it would be more narratively satisfying than if she were a random person who just happened to have a strong connection with the Force. It also makes all the coincidences, like the Millennium Falcon happening to be nearby, feel less coincidental and more like part of a plan. Also, we could still have a random Force-senitive in Finn -- although he wasn't a natural with the lightsaber like Rey, he held his own, and that would also explain why he breaks his stormtrooper programming.

[alias_sqbr]

Oh I definitely don't think she's random, she's someone's daughter, or something like that. But for example Cam and I were discussing that she could have been one of Luke's younger padawans, or the child of one of the older ones.

[lea_hazel]

I really, really hope we get proper amounts of General (Senator?) Organa in the second film. She was so fantastic, and so underused. I am glad that at least she and Rey got a significant interaction that was just between the two of them. I doubt she'll be a mentor to her, given the ending, but I like being able to imagine that they have a significant closeness.

The Snork was ridiculous, but Kylo Ren actually surprised me in that he makes a reasonably coherent and satisfying villain. I said to my brother that he is like seeing how pathetic Darth Vader is without first building him up as someone who seems menacing, powerful, and in control. I suppose that's why Snoke has a presence in this film, when the OT was so careful to minimize the Emperor's exposure so as not to dilute Vader's presence.

Yes, even I had a brief moment of Rey/Ren shipping, and I too could see shades of the A/U where she joins him in the Dark Side and then instantly eclipses him. But overall I'm pretty pleased with Finn/Rey as a canon het ship. If we ever get to see Rey significantly interact with Poe, I imagine I'll enjoy the OT3 even more. Though that's unlikely to be canon.

Rey is awesome. I adore her. I really think I will enjoy her character regardless of whether she's a Skywalker or not. Although I will be grumpy if she's Luke's daughter and her mother is sidelined.

[alias_sqbr]

I suppose that's why Snoke has a presence in this film, when the OT was so careful to minimize the Emperor's exposure so as not to dilute Vader's presence.

Haha, yeah, someone needs to be actually scary :)

Although I will be grumpy if she's Luke's daughter and her mother is sidelined.

Obviously Luke is a trans man and got pregnant via the Force, like his grandmother before him!

[lea_hazel]

That is a very good theory and it makes a lot of sense.

[sanguinity]

And now that I've seen the film, your replies -- you and bunny_m -- to my query about the Leia:Han ratio are hilarious. "This will likely change in the later movies."

They'll have to blow up a trufax actual star in episode nine. SUPERNOVA.

[alias_sqbr]

Haha, indeed :)

Though Harrison Ford is, against all odds, coming back, presumably for flashbacks. So it's not guaranteed!