Two Fandoms both alike in dignity..

[alias_sqbr]

Two posts I read today, both about "book" fandom versus "media" fandom but actually talking about somewhat different things:

A Tale of Two Natcons about fights internal to Australian con fandom between people into writing and books, and people into tv/movies.

Admitting Impediments: Post-WisCon Posts, Part I, or, That Post I Never Made About RaceFail '09 about (amongst other things) the cultural differences between con-going meatspace fandom and internet based fanfic fandom. (EDIT: while it think this has some good things to say, it's part of a conversation which tends to express itself in irritatingly self satisfied (and as has been pointed out to me, ageist) ways. See the comments here for some discussion on that score)

Since I've been ensconced in the former conflict for much longer, and am a book-reading fanficcer married to a tv-loving fan who only really does fandom offline and hates fanfic, I rebel pretty strongly against the latter being described as "book" vs "media" :) EDIT: As angriest points out, literal Book vs Media conflict isn't THAT big of a deal here in Perth any more. But at least for me that's what comes to mind if you use those terms.

I would say that in Perth fandom you have Book, Tv/Movie, Fanfic, and Anime as four somewhat separate fandoms (and there's probably others I'm forgetting because I'm not in them). Ok that's dumb. But thinking about cultural conflicts I think there's definitely more than two sets of subcultural attitudes. Maybe... Old Skool (often into books and writing), Fanfic/Online, Anime/young. Because the Slasher types don't seem any more in touch with the Waicon/Cosplay etc types than anyone else, so I don't think it makes sense to put them together (and obviously there's cross over between all three, myself for example).

Heh. Thinking about Swancon programming streams and minicons that kind of makes "feminism" a fandom, but I'm not sure that's a useful way to think about it :)

Would other Perthites agree? Is Perth/Australia different in this respect than America or other countries?

I have some thoughts on the actual topics of the posts but am SO blah today. But it's going to be interesting seeing it all come together at Aussiecon.

Comments

[baby-elvis.livejournal.com]

I was a bit perturbed by the categories in that post-Wiscon post and the assumptions behind it and a bit insulted. The poster themselves struggled with finding the right terms, as she said, and wasn't happy with them either, but I was dismayed by the underlying 'assumption' that mediafandom or (new fandom) is all wonderful and engaged with the debate and 'right on' and 'book fandom, or old fandom or whatever' is not and refuses to be engaged or educated when confronted with the subject. I imagine that there is just as much racism and head in the sand behaviour in media fandom, just because they aren't engaging in the Race Fail! debate doesn't mean they are not there. And to state that the old fen aren't engaging 'off-line' is a gross generalisation.

Now, I think we should all be engaging in the debate, at least in our minds, but I also feel scared to say anything publicly. I am sure my privilege allows me to keep quiet as racism is not something I live with, but to suggest that I don't care about it is incorrect.

[baby-elvis.livejournal.com]

I think it's just the generalisations that keep popping up in the posts that get to me. And the ageism.

[alias_sqbr]

Also: I was annoyed by the anti-conventional-fandom bias (I think I'm going to have to ponder it and then write a more critical reply), but (privilege again!) was too focussed on that (which is aimed at me) to particularly notice the ageism (which isn't). I'm sorry it made you feel excluded.

Not very deeply thought out thinky thoughts I may later decide are bunk

[alias_sqbr]

In retrospect I think I was repressing my annoyance at the bias of the post because I wasn't sure how to express it, I can see how it would be even more frustrating to someone who isn't in "media" fandom. I've been ruminating on this topic for a while but I haven't quite gotten my thoughts in order. But I'll have a go.

I think "media"/fanfic fandom can be amazingly smug and cliqueish sometimes, and it also redefines "fandom" to mean whoever it wants it to mean(*). For example Ursula LeGuin fans could demonstrate a little of the progressive social values of Stargate:Atlantis fans: does that include most Stargate Atlantis fans, who like most fans are presumably into cons and meeting the actors and finding out spoilers but not fanfic or discussions of race/gender? Or just the ones she hangs out with? One of the things about online fandom (especially on lj) is it's much bigger and more finely delineated so it's easier to find likeminded people and forget that that's not all there is to fandom. This makes it easier to avoid really obnoxious people and create your own space, but also encourages cliqueishness.

I imagine that there is just as much racism and head in the sand behaviour in media fandom

If you look at ALL of fanfic fandom then probably(**). But at least in the parts I move in, I think in recent years there has been a more consistent organised response to call out racism and support POC "media" fans (keeping in mind that media fandom has been around for decades, and I don't know what it was like before this since I only joined recently). And as a follow on I think fanfic fans are thus more aware that POC fans exist and that if you say racist things there is a possibility that a large group of POC and allies will call you out about it (They do not like this fact and will whine about PC police and dogpiling etc). This has been less true in "book" fandom, so as well as all the defensiveness etc you get any time racism is called out you get pure and simple shock.

"Old school" con going fandom is growing and changing itself, and as we know from over here is definitely not a monolith, nor, as you say, is it totally offline. Wiscon and Gynaecon are great examples of what "book" fandom can do.

And as I added to my post, there's lots of fans who are NOT in old school fandom but are ALSO not in "media" fandom. Look at Waicon. And there's lots of people who've been in "media" fandom for decades, from well before the internet. And new and/or young people joining mainstream sf fandom who aren't into fanfic/"media" fandom.

(*)And despite the fact that I am young, online, and write fanfic, quite frequently redefines it to exclude me since I'm not american and don't write boyslash and/or read it for the porn. There's lots of ageism in the other direction too, anyone under 18 is a silly teenager who doesn't "count" though they may grow into a Proper Fan one day.
(**)Though as white person who's never been to the sort of American cons people are complaining about, I could be wrong. Actually the international vs American angle is something these posts don't seem to address, I'm never sure how much our con culture resembles theirs.