Two Fandoms both alike in dignity..

[alias_sqbr]

Two posts I read today, both about "book" fandom versus "media" fandom but actually talking about somewhat different things:

A Tale of Two Natcons about fights internal to Australian con fandom between people into writing and books, and people into tv/movies.

Admitting Impediments: Post-WisCon Posts, Part I, or, That Post I Never Made About RaceFail '09 about (amongst other things) the cultural differences between con-going meatspace fandom and internet based fanfic fandom. (EDIT: while it think this has some good things to say, it's part of a conversation which tends to express itself in irritatingly self satisfied (and as has been pointed out to me, ageist) ways. See the comments here for some discussion on that score)

Since I've been ensconced in the former conflict for much longer, and am a book-reading fanficcer married to a tv-loving fan who only really does fandom offline and hates fanfic, I rebel pretty strongly against the latter being described as "book" vs "media" :) EDIT: As angriest points out, literal Book vs Media conflict isn't THAT big of a deal here in Perth any more. But at least for me that's what comes to mind if you use those terms.

I would say that in Perth fandom you have Book, Tv/Movie, Fanfic, and Anime as four somewhat separate fandoms (and there's probably others I'm forgetting because I'm not in them). Ok that's dumb. But thinking about cultural conflicts I think there's definitely more than two sets of subcultural attitudes. Maybe... Old Skool (often into books and writing), Fanfic/Online, Anime/young. Because the Slasher types don't seem any more in touch with the Waicon/Cosplay etc types than anyone else, so I don't think it makes sense to put them together (and obviously there's cross over between all three, myself for example).

Heh. Thinking about Swancon programming streams and minicons that kind of makes "feminism" a fandom, but I'm not sure that's a useful way to think about it :)

Would other Perthites agree? Is Perth/Australia different in this respect than America or other countries?

I have some thoughts on the actual topics of the posts but am SO blah today. But it's going to be interesting seeing it all come together at Aussiecon.

Comments

[angriest.livejournal.com]

I think the book/lit and media/TV fandoms merged pretty successful in Perth starting with Swancon 17 (1992) and culminating in Swancon 23 (1998). By the end of that period everything was pretty relaxed and cohesive. Obviously there were still plenty of media fans happy to watch episodes at the local clubs and not participate any further than that, but those who did were getting pretty well catered for.

Anime fandom's always been its own thing, but when JAFWA was the main force behind it, it was pretty supportive of Swancon - a lot of anime got included in the Swancon video streams (the video stream at Swancon 18 was where I first got into anime myself), and there was a big crossover between JAFWA's organisers and people helping out at Swancon (John Samuel, Tom Edge, Dale Verdi, Rachel Turner, Ruth Turner, etc). Nowadays it seems to be pushed by cosplayers and fresh-faced teenagers who've crafted their own amazingly successful event.

The fanfic fandom I'm not really clear on, as I've only got peripheral experience of it.

[alias_sqbr]

Hmm, you may be right. Thinking about it some more: I think the thing that jarred me in the second post was the idea that everyone who isn't into Traditional ("book"/con etc) fandom was in fanfic/online fandom. You're right there isn't so much a book vs tv split here, but I do think there's something like that, separate to the fanfic vs no-fanfic split. Maybe Traditional vs Fanfic vs Anime?

And all these "splits" aren't necessarily huge nasty rifts, just overlapping subcultures of types of fans. It's mostly based on feeling like I'm talking different languages when I go from hanging out with one group to another, or one con to another (and based on that I'd put Supanova and Waicon in similar categories).

[angriest.livejournal.com]

I went to Waicon once and felt completely out of place.

Mind you, I went to Swancon this year and regularly felt completely out of place.

Maybe it's just me... : )

[alias_sqbr]

I've only been to Waicon once (I was planning on going this year but got sick) and felt a bit out of place but still had lots of fun. I did feel like a bit of a tourist though.

[angriest.livejournal.com]

Feeling like a tourist is a good description.

[strangedave.livejournal.com]

there was a definite period in Perth fandom where there was tension between lit and media fandom. Swancon 16 and 17 were sort of two responses to that tension (16 being the 'old-guard last gasp' con), and as you say the dialogue continued for a while. It helps that we had fans like you and robinpen (a much bigger name in local then than he is now) who were primarily media focussed, but also obviously keen readers and both engaging very critically with media and engaging with lit fandom very actively, and mortonhall etc actively engaging with both sides organisationally.

As dalekboy has made pretty clear, this was a different experience in Melbourne, were the split was felt more strongly.

It is my impression that this is more unusual than we realise. Certainly, I have listened to interminable rants from Worldcon organisers about how it really doesn't matter that DragonCn and WorldCon clash, because the people who attend both are just interested in different things don't you know, and it really doesn't matter that WorldCon is growing older and all the kids are running around doing StormTrooper burlesque at DragonCon, lit and media fandom being different breeds don't-ya-know. Which generally makes me want to set fire to their smoffish beards.

It has been interesting to see the comparitively sudden, and dramatic, change in anima fandom. Not that long ago I thought Swancon was doing quite a good job of engaging with anime fandom, then suddenly WaiCon and what the hell happened?

[ariaflame.livejournal.com]

Perth, being, or so we thought, too small to host more than one convention (heh) has as the main generic Convention Swancon which tries at least to cater to most areas of fandom. Looking at the Tale of Two Natcons thread a sign that you've succeeded there is that everyone complains that their area didn't have enough panels. While there are people here who focus mainly on one specific area of fandom, I think there are also a lot of us who spread their interests more evenly across the spectum of fannish interests. I'm not sure if Swancon is the result of this, or the cause of this.

You also left Gaming off your list of separate fandoms. :)

If an area is big enough to have a con, but small enough that there aren't that many people interested in running a con about Their Fandom, then a more general con results. There may be the odd mini-con with a more specific focus, and hey, that's fine.

Of course the advent of Waicon has shown that for certain fandoms there are indeed enough people in Perth interested in specific things. But there might not be enough for every specific thing. And one on a specific thing may not appeal to everyone, even if they like that thing. I've never been tempted by Waicon myself as it seems, from what I've heard to be largely a combination of Cosplay and a dealers room. And while I like some anime, this is not the facet of it that appeals to me.

[alias_sqbr]

Ha! Yes, see, I don't game, so I didn't think of it. Good thing I don't run conventions eh? :)

*nods to everything else*

[angriest.livejournal.com]

Gaming fandoms gone through a big paradigm shift over the past few years, thanks to the likes of Rob'n'Leece, Terry, Mikey and other Eurogame-types. So far it's intersecting very successfully with Swancon, which makes me glad.

[bunny-m.livejournal.com]

I've never been tempted by Waicon myself as it seems, from what I've heard to be largely a combination of Cosplay and a dealers room.

Based on my brief exposure, the first couple of Waicons (The ones at Murdoch) were small, fan-run affairs, and all the ones since are precisely as you list: purely cosplay and money-machine.

But then, a) I am not the target audience, and b) haven't really seen much of them, so my opinion could very easily be wrong.

[strangedave.livejournal.com]

There was this huge golden age of awesome gaming cons on the east coast through most of the 90s, and Swancon didn't even notice, largely :-) and the only effect was that Swancon incorporated LARPs for a few years.

[baby-elvis.livejournal.com]

I was a bit perturbed by the categories in that post-Wiscon post and the assumptions behind it and a bit insulted. The poster themselves struggled with finding the right terms, as she said, and wasn't happy with them either, but I was dismayed by the underlying 'assumption' that mediafandom or (new fandom) is all wonderful and engaged with the debate and 'right on' and 'book fandom, or old fandom or whatever' is not and refuses to be engaged or educated when confronted with the subject. I imagine that there is just as much racism and head in the sand behaviour in media fandom, just because they aren't engaging in the Race Fail! debate doesn't mean they are not there. And to state that the old fen aren't engaging 'off-line' is a gross generalisation.

Now, I think we should all be engaging in the debate, at least in our minds, but I also feel scared to say anything publicly. I am sure my privilege allows me to keep quiet as racism is not something I live with, but to suggest that I don't care about it is incorrect.

[baby-elvis.livejournal.com]

I think it's just the generalisations that keep popping up in the posts that get to me. And the ageism.

[alias_sqbr]

Also: I was annoyed by the anti-conventional-fandom bias (I think I'm going to have to ponder it and then write a more critical reply), but (privilege again!) was too focussed on that (which is aimed at me) to particularly notice the ageism (which isn't). I'm sorry it made you feel excluded.

Not very deeply thought out thinky thoughts I may later decide are bunk

[alias_sqbr]

In retrospect I think I was repressing my annoyance at the bias of the post because I wasn't sure how to express it, I can see how it would be even more frustrating to someone who isn't in "media" fandom. I've been ruminating on this topic for a while but I haven't quite gotten my thoughts in order. But I'll have a go.

I think "media"/fanfic fandom can be amazingly smug and cliqueish sometimes, and it also redefines "fandom" to mean whoever it wants it to mean(*). For example Ursula LeGuin fans could demonstrate a little of the progressive social values of Stargate:Atlantis fans: does that include most Stargate Atlantis fans, who like most fans are presumably into cons and meeting the actors and finding out spoilers but not fanfic or discussions of race/gender? Or just the ones she hangs out with? One of the things about online fandom (especially on lj) is it's much bigger and more finely delineated so it's easier to find likeminded people and forget that that's not all there is to fandom. This makes it easier to avoid really obnoxious people and create your own space, but also encourages cliqueishness.

I imagine that there is just as much racism and head in the sand behaviour in media fandom

If you look at ALL of fanfic fandom then probably(**). But at least in the parts I move in, I think in recent years there has been a more consistent organised response to call out racism and support POC "media" fans (keeping in mind that media fandom has been around for decades, and I don't know what it was like before this since I only joined recently). And as a follow on I think fanfic fans are thus more aware that POC fans exist and that if you say racist things there is a possibility that a large group of POC and allies will call you out about it (They do not like this fact and will whine about PC police and dogpiling etc). This has been less true in "book" fandom, so as well as all the defensiveness etc you get any time racism is called out you get pure and simple shock.

"Old school" con going fandom is growing and changing itself, and as we know from over here is definitely not a monolith, nor, as you say, is it totally offline. Wiscon and Gynaecon are great examples of what "book" fandom can do.

And as I added to my post, there's lots of fans who are NOT in old school fandom but are ALSO not in "media" fandom. Look at Waicon. And there's lots of people who've been in "media" fandom for decades, from well before the internet. And new and/or young people joining mainstream sf fandom who aren't into fanfic/"media" fandom.

(*)And despite the fact that I am young, online, and write fanfic, quite frequently redefines it to exclude me since I'm not american and don't write boyslash and/or read it for the porn. There's lots of ageism in the other direction too, anyone under 18 is a silly teenager who doesn't "count" though they may grow into a Proper Fan one day.
(**)Though as white person who's never been to the sort of American cons people are complaining about, I could be wrong. Actually the international vs American angle is something these posts don't seem to address, I'm never sure how much our con culture resembles theirs.

[bunny-m.livejournal.com]

Hey, thanks for posting these links, Doc. THey'll keep me reading and thinking for some time to come.

[alias_sqbr]

Happy to oblige :)

[danamaree.livejournal.com]

All I ever know about fandom is through LJ, before LJ it was mailing lists, and that was only a few years. I have only ever been to media centred conventions, and most of them in England. A handful here. So I can't make a comparison directly. But from what I've heard, and from what I've read, book fandom seems terribly, terribly cliquey and very political.

Of course, so is media fandom, especially amongst slashers, yes even in Australia. But book fandom is an unknown for me, so it scares me. I wouldn't go to a speculative literature con without someone who I know, and can hang with. I've been able to go into media conventions in England solo and make friends easily, I have heard it's different with the book crowd (in Australia). But this is only what I've heard, not through experience. So who knows.

[alias_sqbr]

I joined my uni's sf club, which was rather cliquey, but I was really shy anyway and eventually got to know people (also I'd just come out of a snooty girls school so my tolerance for cliqueyness was pretty high :D). By the time I went to my first Swancon a few years later I already knew enough people in local fandom to fit in. So I think Swancon is less cliquey than some of the east coast cons apparently are but I can't really say. Where it does get cliquey is stuff like con committees and panelists etc.

I found fanfic fandom rather cliquey and off putting when I first encountered it, I still don't entirely feel a part of it since people keep writing meta and assumptions about the True Nature of Fandom/Fanfic and it never describes me.

[danamaree.livejournal.com]

I don't think I would put in the effort to get involved with book fandom in real life, I'm just not that passionate about it. I love my books, but I love fanfiction more.

I had no problem with getting involved with fanfiction fandom with people I knew around in Brisbane. But I've drifted from that scene over the last few years.

[alias_sqbr]

Fair enough. I LOVE old school con fandom (which is not totally book focussed here), but intellectually at least realise it's not everyone's cup of tea :)

[danamaree.livejournal.com]

Oh, and if the anime/manga/FF peoples around were at least a decade older then average, I'd love to be in that area, but everyone is so freakishly young.

(at least, at the anime con I did go to)

[alias_sqbr]

Heh, yeah, I think I'm a bit younger than you and I did feel pretty old at the local anime con :)

[danamaree.livejournal.com]

I know, a lot of them are getting to be around the age where I could almost be there mother (which is freaky in itself). They are enthusiastic, and I'm glad for the next generation, it's just...I can't get much of the type of discussion I'd get with older fans.

[alias_sqbr]

*nods* *tangentially starts pondering the limits of "old enough to be their mother" as a numerical quantity*

[penchaft.livejournal.com]

Huh.

[http://users.livejournal.com/peasant_/]

I think it helps to think more in terms of sets. Each individual fan will belong to many sets - fandom for show x, fandom for show y, fandom for book z, interested in social justice, vegetarian, likes yellow - and in some cases those sets may overlap to a considerable degree, thus giving the false impression that 'everyone' in X fandom cares about social justice or likes yellow, or whatever. It is always easier to see the overlaps because by definition that is where you as an individual are standing - to notice the non-overlaps you have to really look up and peer into the distance. And it is none of it ever a binary, but always a highly complex interlocking pattern.

The problem is people like thinking in binaries - it is an easy and natural way for us to think. So they create a false sense of tribe where one shouldn't exist and then get defensive and have the potential to be hurt when apparent members of their tribe deviate from what they had expected. I know I get a lot of trouble with people who assume that because they agree with my opinion on Spike and Angel I must share their outlook on everything from politics to fashion - and they can seem genuinely hurt when they discover I don't.

Personally from where I was standing the idea that everyone in 'media' fandom was even aware of racefail, never mind if they understood the discourse, while everyone in 'book' fandom was 'failing' is nonsense - even taking her approximate definitions of media and book as not literally meaning liking media as opposed to liking books.

[alias_sqbr]

I think it's valid to make generalisations in principle, certainly stuff like "fanfic fandom has more women in it than mainstream sf fandom". But I agree that people (a)Mistake their experience with people on their flist as being true for all of fanfic fandom and (b)Go from "this is the way things tend to be" to "This is the way things always are and should be" (as I ranted about in my next post)

And yes, it's not really a binary anyway. I think my experience is more neatly divided since it's between online American dominated fanfic fandom and local australian based con-fandom, and even then it fuzzes at the edges pretty significantly.

[emma-in-oz.livejournal.com]

Cannot be bothered reading through the Wiscon ageist, ill thought through screed. Firstly, not all old people = teh racist pigs. Also, not all media fans = users of the internet.

Apparently broad generalisations ok if you don't aim them at POC:-)

[alias_sqbr]

Actually something that was pointed out to me about that post is that it doesn't really mention POC at all. The people who are mentioned as being hurt by racism..are white. The people fighting against racism are "media fans" ie mostly white. I'm not sure that's an improvement :/

Cons are hard

[kitsune-iii.livejournal.com]

I think cons are hard in general if you don't have anyone to hang with. I recently went to my first Hullabaloo, which is Perth's long weekend of swing dancing workshops and dances, having done a bit of dancing over the past six months but not really got to know many people. Think of it as Swingcon. I went to a number of the dances and one workshop and found it hard to meet people and find people to dance with. Any large gathering of people who you don't know and have a shared social/cultural basis is likely to appear cliquey and intimidating unless it tries very hard *not* to be.

Re: Cons are hard

[alias_sqbr]

Any large gathering of people who you don't know and have a shared social/cultural basis is likely to appear cliquey and intimidating unless it tries very hard *not* to be.

Yes. And I think that can cause a lot of misunderstanding: a newbie says "I find this community uninviting and cliquish" and people take that to mean "I think I'm being deliberately excluded". But unless you try and be deliberately inviting you're going to put people off.

[hlbr.livejournal.com]

I read those. I found them interesting, of course, but I mainly felt excluded. I will never be a 'book' fan, then, because my contact with fandom is through the 'net. What can I do? I'm the other side of the world.

I also don't write slash*, and both my main fandoms (HP and JA) are book fandoms, so do I belong to media fandom or not? HP, perhaps, counts, but I'm pretty sure that JA doesn't, to the people talking.

The definitions are flawed, I think; though there are differences, I doubt they can be so easily classified into two sides.

*A lie now, that I'm writing it. -_- But I don't consider myself a slash writer, anyway.

[alias_sqbr]

I'm in local "book" fandom, but am unlikely to ever go to Wiscon or Dragoncon or whatever, and the dynamic here is different afaict. So it's a weird sense of "ARE they talking about me? Do the same rules apply?"

I also don't write slash*, and both my main fandoms (HP and JA) are book fandoms, so do I belong to media fandom or not? HP, perhaps, counts, but I'm pretty sure that JA doesn't, to the people talking.

YES. And now I'm getting into femslash, which is both inside and outside the assumed sphere of "fandom". I can't stand mailing lists/forums as a way of communicating so haven't gotten into the same JA fandomy stuff you're in, but dipping my toe in was enough to realise it's this whole world which is totally ignored by metafandomy analysis. There was also all those rockfic people when OTW got started etc.

The definitions are flawed, I think; though there are differences, I doubt they can be so easily classified into two sides.

In my experience my local fandom is a different culture to the fanfic fans I talk to online, but there's definitely a whole lot more people not in either group and I don't know if it's possible to draw large-scale divisions.

[ithiliana.livejournal.com]

There is the universal problem of people overgeneralizing based on their experience of fandom (and I haven't read the discussion since last night, but at least some people were trying to counter the positive/negative terminologies being suggested). And I definitely think there are age stereotypes going on in both directions (apparently the 30 year old fen are as invisible as bisexual english majors..). But I think there's some value in this discussion (and there have been some other good posts).

The ongoing problem is that people want the binary, and I don't think that will work--no matter what people spin on it--not only because reality is more complex than languages, but because, I think there's this ongoing tendency to somehow privilege SFF (whether in book or media forms) in ways that reduce other major elements of fandoms to a lesser position...if that makes any sense. It might not--it just came to me.

[alias_sqbr]

There is the universal problem of people overgeneralizing based on their experience of fandom

Oh yes.

I'm around 30 and feel included in both discussions, but maybe that's just me :) I think it's the 50ish fanfic fans and 20ish old school fans who are really ignored (not to mention fans of any age not in EITHER of those groups, into anime or whatever), agewise.

There's definitely value in the discussion.

I think this particular conversation is about sff fandom, are other sorts of fandom (popslash etc) really relevant to Wiscon? (not a rhetorical question, I don't know much about Wiscon) Or am I missing your point? But I agree that the intersection of sff and fanfic is often assumed to be all there is to fanfic fandom, since that's the only part of fandom I really care about I don't notice so much but I have noticed grumblings about it here and there and I can see how it would be frustrating.