Fandom as a female space
Jan. 16th, 2008 03:45 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
alias_sqbrSo there's a been a lot of discussion on ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
metafandom about fanfic-fandom as a female space, both wrt OTW and (looking back) in general.
This has bugged me a bit, especially when I've seen some of the practical implications. Nothing I have to say here is all that new or exciting, I just feel better getting it out.
Now with respect to OTW my main problem is that they claim to be speaking for all creators of "transformative works", many of which (like machina, parody etc) do not come from "primarily female communities". But I'm assuming this contradiction will be ironed out one way or another in time (I asked on their feedback page, so we'll see) and don't feel too comfortable giving them crap about their policies until I'm sure of what their policies are.
(EDIT: I am so totally not accusing OTW of the stuff I'm complaining about below, it's just that discussions about OTW stirred up general-fandomy-people's nasty opinions.)
Unlike a lot of people, I have absolutely no problem with fanfic-fandom being a feminist space, or a safe space for women (I only wish it were true of sff fandom). And the fact that most fanfic is written by women is a basic fact that's silly to deny. Men who come in going "But..you guys should stop talking about kissing and start doing more explosions!" are being equivalent to a tourist complaining about those silly chinese people putting soy sauce on their pasta instead of bolognaise(*).
My problem is when fanfic-fandom is treated as equivalent to "women's spaces" like the women's room at uni. (EDIT: this isn't quite what people are doing, certainly noone says men aren't allowed. Here's the best essay I could find on the subject after a brief search, and here's the same basic idea expressed in a much dodgier way)
Unlike deliberately female spaces, fandom isn't defined as being female, it's just the
collection of everyone who likes fanfic etc. As it happens it has ended up mostly female for historical etc reasons, but that's different from a social group which was deliberately and explicitly created to cater to one group. There are plenty of all-gender social events for non-female people to go to, but if a man likes fanfic then it's not like can just go to the "mens fanfic club" and discuss it there, this is all there is.
I'm trying to think of examples...the best I can think of is that childrearing used to be "women's work" and is still pretty much done just by women. This has led to single fathers being excluded from parenting rooms and parenting groups which just assume that everyone who wants to use them is female.
Similarly, gay men and trans or genderqueer people are often excluded from fandom-y things along with the straight cisgendered men, with the argument that fandom is a women's space and they are not women, so they should shut up. I've seen it happen a bunch of time, and I don't like it.
On the whole, it seems to me that the not-women(**) in "female spaces" are more likely to be the sort to buck traditional gender roles and so be already marginalised in the wider society. Defining these spaces so rigidly that these not-women are excluded or marginalised here is beyond just defending ourselves from the patriarchy, it's perpetuating the patriarchy in it's oppression of a different group.
(*)And from the sound of things, a lot of male academics in this area are like italian chefs going on about how Marco Polo invented pasta, and who only reference the chinese at all to smirk about how they have no idea how to cook pasta sauce. To extend this metaphor past breaking: at the same time, that doesn't change the fact that spaghetti bolognaise is delicious, and not everyone who likes it hates China (or soy sauce) *is now hungry*
(**)And self identified women who don't fit the everyone's definition of "woman", like transwomen.
Note: I have a new policy of cutting down my internet time quite dramatically, so this was written on the fly. Sorry if it's all crap! EDIT: Haha, and now I've been metafandomed. Hi guys, I appreciate the comments but may be slow to reply :)
metafandom about fanfic-fandom as a female space, both wrt OTW and (looking back) in general. This has bugged me a bit, especially when I've seen some of the practical implications. Nothing I have to say here is all that new or exciting, I just feel better getting it out.
Now with respect to OTW my main problem is that they claim to be speaking for all creators of "transformative works", many of which (like machina, parody etc) do not come from "primarily female communities". But I'm assuming this contradiction will be ironed out one way or another in time (I asked on their feedback page, so we'll see) and don't feel too comfortable giving them crap about their policies until I'm sure of what their policies are.
(EDIT: I am so totally not accusing OTW of the stuff I'm complaining about below, it's just that discussions about OTW stirred up general-fandomy-people's nasty opinions.)
Unlike a lot of people, I have absolutely no problem with fanfic-fandom being a feminist space, or a safe space for women (I only wish it were true of sff fandom). And the fact that most fanfic is written by women is a basic fact that's silly to deny. Men who come in going "But..you guys should stop talking about kissing and start doing more explosions!" are being equivalent to a tourist complaining about those silly chinese people putting soy sauce on their pasta instead of bolognaise(*).
My problem is when fanfic-fandom is treated as equivalent to "women's spaces" like the women's room at uni. (EDIT: this isn't quite what people are doing, certainly noone says men aren't allowed. Here's the best essay I could find on the subject after a brief search, and here's the same basic idea expressed in a much dodgier way)
Unlike deliberately female spaces, fandom isn't defined as being female, it's just the
collection of everyone who likes fanfic etc. As it happens it has ended up mostly female for historical etc reasons, but that's different from a social group which was deliberately and explicitly created to cater to one group. There are plenty of all-gender social events for non-female people to go to, but if a man likes fanfic then it's not like can just go to the "mens fanfic club" and discuss it there, this is all there is.
I'm trying to think of examples...the best I can think of is that childrearing used to be "women's work" and is still pretty much done just by women. This has led to single fathers being excluded from parenting rooms and parenting groups which just assume that everyone who wants to use them is female.
Similarly, gay men and trans or genderqueer people are often excluded from fandom-y things along with the straight cisgendered men, with the argument that fandom is a women's space and they are not women, so they should shut up. I've seen it happen a bunch of time, and I don't like it.
On the whole, it seems to me that the not-women(**) in "female spaces" are more likely to be the sort to buck traditional gender roles and so be already marginalised in the wider society. Defining these spaces so rigidly that these not-women are excluded or marginalised here is beyond just defending ourselves from the patriarchy, it's perpetuating the patriarchy in it's oppression of a different group.
(*)And from the sound of things, a lot of male academics in this area are like italian chefs going on about how Marco Polo invented pasta, and who only reference the chinese at all to smirk about how they have no idea how to cook pasta sauce. To extend this metaphor past breaking: at the same time, that doesn't change the fact that spaghetti bolognaise is delicious, and not everyone who likes it hates China (or soy sauce) *is now hungry*
(**)And self identified women who don't fit the everyone's definition of "woman", like transwomen.
Note: I have a new policy of cutting down my internet time quite dramatically, so this was written on the fly. Sorry if it's all crap! EDIT: Haha, and now I've been metafandomed. Hi guys, I appreciate the comments but may be slow to reply :)
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no subject
Date: 2008-01-17 04:49 am (UTC)I have to admit, I get really fed up with the double standard applied when association with women seems to automatically devalue a genre (I would include fanfic in this, but for a "real world" example, take romance writing), but any insistence on a genre being "women's space" is seen as exclusive and inflammatory when it is used in a positive way or brought up by the women themselves.
I by no means think that men or anyone who steps outside the traditional definitions and roles of gender should be excluded from fandom, provided they don't go about swirling a metaphorical cloak of patriarchy and privilege behind them, in which case I think they should be excluded because they're dicks, not because they aren't women. On the other hand, I don't see how calling fanfic fandom a primarily female space excludes men (marginalizes them, maybe, but I think it's more a matter of acknowledging their conspicuous absence and the reasons for that) or that there's any giant female conspiracy to boycott guys in fandom.
In my point of view, fanfic fandom is a tiny female-dominated space in a ginormous male-dominated space called Earth. I don't think the women of fandom go around hunting for males to identify and then exclude. I think that issues of gender in fandom get brought up mainly when there are issues of oppression and privilege (i.e. Fanlib) that disadvantage those women and are perpetuated mainly by men (not even male fans, but often outsiders). I see the definition of fandom as women's space as being more about preventing male intrusion (from the larger world, where men are hugely privileged and prone to act that out when stepping into communities that don't grant them that privilege) than male participation (and yes, I do think a male fan is being intrusive if he demands that fandom change to suit his tastes; if he doesn't make such demands, I think he'll be largely gender-invisible). No one's stopping fanboys from writing what they want and posting it, but if they are upset that female fans are not interested in reading what they're interested in writing . . . well, I don't care, frankly. Tough shit. Also, yes, some of those men are oppressed in other ways (i.e. queer), but that doesn't negate their male privilege.
This all makes me sound far more confrontational than I actually am, and I'm not writing this to argue with you, or to talk about how women are pure and good and inclusive and men are intrusive brutes. In short, I think that gender is largely a particularly nasty sort of fiction, but it's a fiction with great significance in the world in which we live. I don't think that the risk of men feeling excluded outweighs the need to analyze and challenge the ways in which women and their work are perceived, commodified, marginalized, and degraded.
I take your point, however, about how "transformative work" is not limited to fanfic, and I do believe that presents a problem. However, I think that consideration of the role that Fanlib played in the creation of the OTW sheds light on that; I do not know enough about the continuing debate to say whether or not gender is a consideration that should be reduced as the organization broadens its focus.
no subject
Date: 2008-01-17 06:13 am (UTC)Same. In fact I think we agree on a lot of things. We may even agree on pretty much everything and be shouting past each other :)
And as I said in my post, I'm definitely not objecting to fandom being called a "primarily female space" (well, except with the fact that this gets a bit ambiguous when we're talking about OTW, but I think we agree there)
I'm not entirely objecting to it being labeled a "female space" (which is different), though I'm still figuring out quite how I feel about that. I've seen lots of people who see it as a female space express themselves in very inclusive ways which affirm the role of women without trying to belittle or marginalise not-women, and I'm sure you do it that way too. I certainly enjoy having a female dominated nerdy place to hang out from time to time after the fierce maleness of nerd circles in general, and see how precious and rare that is and why people want to protect it.
What I'm objecting to is the minority of women who do define fandom as a "female space" in an exclusionary way and who automatically pigeonhole anyone who doesn't 100% fit their idea of "female fanficcer " as male/part of the patriarchy and thus the bad guy (heck, this has happened to me as a gen fan)
The world may "belong to men". But it belongs, specifically, to straight cisgendered men, and gay/trans/genderqueer etc "men" don't tend to get the full force of male privilege. And a man who is being all obnoxious and priviligey doesn't deserve our time..but that doesn't describe all not-women with a dissenting voice.
Look, I agree that people whose taste doesn't match that of the majority of fandom (and this includes myself) have to just put up with it. But if it's not a matter of taste but of heterosexism or whatever then I think people have a right to speak up and rock the boat, even if they are male.
To give an example: I think gay men and transpeople etc have a right to express an opinion about how the group they're a part of is presented in fanfiction in the same way that women have a right to express an opinion on how they're presented in fiction aimed at men, especially since it's not like there's a subgenre of fanfiction aimed at gay men or whatever that they can go read instead.
That said, I think presenting it as a simple case of straight people fetishising homosexuality is as wrong as seeing it as a simple case of men putting down women's writing. I'm not saying we have to agree with their opinions, just that they have a right to express them without being shouted down or ignored, and this doesn't always happen.
no subject
Date: 2008-01-18 02:09 am (UTC)Oh, yeah, wow. No, I don't advocate that at all. I find the designation of female space valuable in an analytic way, not as a way of policing who can and cannot be in fandom.
The world may "belong to men". But it belongs, specifically, to straight cisgendered men, and gay/trans/genderqueer etc "men" don't tend to get the full force of male privilege. And a man who is being all obnoxious and priviligey doesn't deserve our time..but that doesn't describe all not-women with a dissenting voice.
Definitely, 100% agreed. I mean, I think the intersection of privilege can be really complicated, and I definitely didn't mean to imply that just being a man prevents you from ever experiencing oppression or something (I mean, I'm a queer woman, but I'm white, and I'm USAmerican and middle class and cisgendered, so I am not really at the bottom of the privilege barrel, you know?). And abso-fucking-lutely, I think genderqueer and trans folks and pretty much everyone has the right to advocate for themselves in fandom, and I would not consider a them sexist for doing so.
When I said that experiencing some other type of oppression doesn't negate male privilege, I meant only that one can't assume that, say, a gay man is going to be completely not sexist because he knows what it's like to experience heterosexism, anymore than I'm going to avoid unintentional racism 100% of the time just because I know what it's like to experience sexism or homophobia. So, being gay or genderqueer or whatever isn't a defense against sexism, but neither is being male an automatic indicator of it (except in the way that all human beings sort of suck, and we all screw up, and deliberately or not we're on going to stomp all over someone whom we have privilege over at some point).
Also, for the record, I read a lot of gen and femmeslash and slash and het and various combinations of those, as well as tons of different fandoms and communities and authors whom I'll follow even into fandoms I don't know. I mention this because I have not seen much of such exclusionary talk about not-women in fandom, and I was wondering if the people saying it were focused in one particular area, and I've just missed them, or if they are particularly affiliated with OTW (in which case I'm freaked out), or what. The poster you linked to in your original post (the dodgy one) creeped me out, and I assumed that such opinions were pretty rare and that most of the "exclusion" of men in fandom was actually the result of privileged over-reaction the legitimate criticisms of sexism by women (this is what I've mainly seen before now, and that was the premise I was writing from when I made my first comment, which was ill-considered).
no subject
Date: 2008-01-18 11:51 pm (UTC)First off: this is DEFINITELY not an OTW thing, it's just that the OTW has prompted discussions of fandom as a female space and that stirs up all this other stuff.
Second: I'm in a somewhat odd position in fandom since I'm not really "in" any specific fandoms, I pretty much just read fanfic and metafandom and the ljs of various people I know and like (often for non-fandomy reasons or because they lead me to the good fanfic) So my experience may not be very representative. Also the fact that I see my geeky "home" as male dominated science fiction fandom rather than female dominated fanfic fandom probably affects my judgement.
That said....
The thing with the exclusionary talk: it's generally pretty subtle,a subtext implied during discussions about other things, such as fandom as a female space. I'm not saying there's people loudly proclaiming that we should kick all the transexuals out of fandom or anything. It's rather like the subtle "lies of omission" racism I've seen in feminism: a group of (mostly) well meaning, pro inclusiveness people are not going to be deliberately oppressive or spout a bunch of politically incorrect insults or anything, but we're not immune to simply not noticing how our behaviour affects other people and then getting defensive when called on it.
Since I'm a straight cisgendered woman I'm not the best person to notice these negative effects myself, but I have noticed the knee-jerk defensiveness and refusal to even stop and listen and try to figure out if anything bad is happening when gay men etc complain. Given that most men who complain about fandom are unjustified misogynists I realise that this defensiveness makes a lot of sense, but I still think we have to be more careful.
no subject
Date: 2008-01-19 01:10 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-21 01:54 am (UTC)