Het romance with reversed gender dynamics
Nov. 7th, 2011 12:27 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
alias_sqbrI read a lot of romances and romance-centered stories. Unfortunately (for someone with my tastes) most of them conform to really rigid gender roles: the man is always older, taller, more powerful, domineering, etc, and this is often presented as Just The Way Gender Works (especially in urban fantasy, ug)
It is SO HARD to find m/f romances(*) where this is reversed, or at least mixed up a little. The few I have found are either (a)primarily about the man being sexually dominated (and either it's not very romantic, or outside the bedroom he's twice as domineering to make up for it) or (b)go so far in the other direction they hit one of my major squicks (anything resembling parent/child (including teacher/student), sexualisation of children, rapist as love interest)
Two types of stories with superficial similarities to what I want that leave a bad state in my mouth are "unwomanly woman is all broken inside, needs a real man to help her soften and become a real woman" aka Defrosting Ice Queen, and strong female characters who are powerful and out spoken but ultimately their badassery only exists to make the man who gets to win them look good. So, I'm avoiding those.
Thus! A list of stories I have enjoyed or at least found interesting. Be warned, this is definitely not a list of "romances with totally unproblematic and feminist gender dynamics", and I found some of them quite disturbing. It's also incredibly subjective.
All stories are long, well written, and have a central romantic plot about a man and a woman finding a happy ending together. Any other recs appreciated!
Miss Wonderful by Loretta Chase (romance novel): A mildly disabled war veteran butts heads with a determined older spinster about the building of a canal. Not that notable in terms of gender roles, but a good romance.
Lord Carew's Bride by Mary Balogh (romance novel): a woman getting over a charming rake enjoys the company of a sweet, non threatening disabled man, eventually realises she loves him. Inoffensively bland (well, the disabled = non threatening = not overwhelmingly sexy thing kind of offended me) and overall pretty generic, but it was a change from your typical regency romance gender dynamic.
Other romance novel recs I have mostly yet to check out: Romances with female tops (not what I'm after, personally) and a post asking for romance novel heroes who are insecure or virgins. I've heard good things about some Georgette Heyer, but her books irritate me.
The Proposal (romance movie): A guy's older, domineering, cold hearted female boss demands that he marry her so she can get a Green Card. Romantic shenanigans ensue. Deeply flawed, and a bit Defrosting Ice Queen, but I enjoyed it overall.
Kimi wa Petto by Yayoi Ogawa (josei manga): A 27 year old career woman, coming to terms with being dumped and treated badly at work for being too tall/well educated/ambitious etc, decides her next boyfriend will be taller, older, and richer. When she comes across a short, young, poor, beaten up 20 year old boy outside her apartment she takes him in, but only on the condition that he becomes her pet. Over time they try and negotiate what their relationship really means to them both.
I really enjoyed this. It has a few dodgy moments (including one rapist-as-love-interest, though the main characters are reasonably good about consent for manga characters) but it's funny and sweet and three dimensional, and takes itself just seriously enough. I have a feeling it might be a bit "we're not kinky we just love each other" for anyone who's actually into D/s.
Gokusen by Kozueko Morimoto (josei manga): The granddaughter of a yakuza (mafia) boss becomes a maths teacher at an unruly boys school. Shenanigans ensue, including a lot of rescuing her students. She eventually gets together with one of them, which would normally squick me, but she explicitly Doesn't See Him That Way until after graduation (much to his annoyance) and they relate as equals. Very funny, strongly recced.
The Queen's Thief Series by Megan Whalen Turner: Hiijinks and political shenanigans in a fantasy alternate Greece. I've only read the first three books, but they were charming, easy to read and clever, and while large sections are VERY much from a male POV the female characters are pretty amazing and important. I'm not sure how to describe the romantic relationship in without spoilers but, well. The male protagonist has nightmares about his love interest, he finds her so intimidating (that crossed the line a little for me, though only just)
(some) Homestuck fanfic: Homestuck itself doesn't concentrate on romance much, but there is a common theme of the female characters being more self confident, powerful and dangerous than the male ones, and this comes out in some of the fic, especially Dave/Terezi, though she can tend towards being tiny and cute and/or a "Strong Female Character". I particularly like Cities in Dust by cephied_variable.
The Mass Effect and Dragon Age games, also the associated fanfic: By the very nature of these sorts of games, the main character (male or female) is a world-saving hero and powerful warrior, and the commanding officer of their love interest. A lot of the companions (male or female) are written as loyal lieutenants who look up to the PC as a role model/leader, whether you romance them or not. I wouldn't play these just for the romances, but they are an enjoyable aspect, and the power dynamic is generally at least somewhat evident in the female-PC-centric fic.
The Privilege of the Sword by Ellen Kushner: I have a feeling I mainly enjoyed this for hitting some of my related but different buttons (the main character is a cross dressing woman with a sword fighting the patriarchy while rescuing damsels in femslashy ways) But the het romance definitely subverted a lot of typical fantasy romance tropes. Warning: rape triggers.
These don't have romantic relationships as such, but have really strong, central, committed relationships between men and women that don't fit typical patterns.
Otoyomegatari by Kaoru Mori (manga): Follows a 20 year old woman in Central Asia in the early 19th century adjusting to an arranged marriage with a 12 year old boy. Their relationship is pretty platonic but still squicked me, other than that it's incredibly well written and beautifully illustrated. Not sure I'll be able to keep reading but other people may enjoy it.
The Twelve Kingdoms (anime and books) The female main character has two very strong, positive platonic(ish) relationships with men she has a great deal of power over, and the whole story is about her overcoming the passive femininity she was raised into to become decisive and determined. There is lots of fanfic romanticising these relationships, I really liked All things grow, though it's fairly short.
The last two stories are so triggery they triggered me, and that doesn't happen very often. Even the descriptions may be upsetting. They're not really what I'm after, either, but do do some interesting things
The Captive Prince by freece (online novel in progress): in a world where all nobles own slaves, a prince of one country is captured and made the pleasure slave of the prince of a neighbouring enemy country (who has no idea who he is beyond his nationality, and no interest in a pleasure slave)
So, this is m/m. But it read as so blatantly a metaphor about heterosexual gender relations to me (and the sort of metaphor that wouldn't work if played straight) that I'm including it anyway. The first few pages are pretty much wall to wall triggers (of all sorts), and it isn't finished, and in typical original slash fashion the few female characters tend to show up for half a scene every five chapters to be kickass and make the male protagonists look good/sexy then vanish. But I found the dynamic that resulted from the straightforward manly man being forced to deal with being the slave of the effeminate manipulative youth really interesting, and it's really hard to put down.
Shadowheart by Laura Kinsale (romance novel): Woman is kidnapped by lithe, woobie-ish renegade who is horrible and domineering but secretly likes being sexually dominated. I hated this story and couldn't finish it, but the hero is pretty unique (if rape-y :/) and a lot of people seem to like it.
There's definitely more, but the longer I think about it the more tangled up I get trying to tell the difference between a genuine flip of gender roles and "Look at this weird gender flipped situation! Isn't it zany! Now let's fix it".
(*)Which of course is one reason to read romances that aren't m/f. But this post isn't about them.
It is SO HARD to find m/f romances(*) where this is reversed, or at least mixed up a little. The few I have found are either (a)primarily about the man being sexually dominated (and either it's not very romantic, or outside the bedroom he's twice as domineering to make up for it) or (b)go so far in the other direction they hit one of my major squicks (anything resembling parent/child (including teacher/student), sexualisation of children, rapist as love interest)
Two types of stories with superficial similarities to what I want that leave a bad state in my mouth are "unwomanly woman is all broken inside, needs a real man to help her soften and become a real woman" aka Defrosting Ice Queen, and strong female characters who are powerful and out spoken but ultimately their badassery only exists to make the man who gets to win them look good. So, I'm avoiding those.
Thus! A list of stories I have enjoyed or at least found interesting. Be warned, this is definitely not a list of "romances with totally unproblematic and feminist gender dynamics", and I found some of them quite disturbing. It's also incredibly subjective.
All stories are long, well written, and have a central romantic plot about a man and a woman finding a happy ending together. Any other recs appreciated!
Romances
Miss Wonderful by Loretta Chase (romance novel): A mildly disabled war veteran butts heads with a determined older spinster about the building of a canal. Not that notable in terms of gender roles, but a good romance.
Lord Carew's Bride by Mary Balogh (romance novel): a woman getting over a charming rake enjoys the company of a sweet, non threatening disabled man, eventually realises she loves him. Inoffensively bland (well, the disabled = non threatening = not overwhelmingly sexy thing kind of offended me) and overall pretty generic, but it was a change from your typical regency romance gender dynamic.
Other romance novel recs I have mostly yet to check out: Romances with female tops (not what I'm after, personally) and a post asking for romance novel heroes who are insecure or virgins. I've heard good things about some Georgette Heyer, but her books irritate me.
The Proposal (romance movie): A guy's older, domineering, cold hearted female boss demands that he marry her so she can get a Green Card. Romantic shenanigans ensue. Deeply flawed, and a bit Defrosting Ice Queen, but I enjoyed it overall.
Kimi wa Petto by Yayoi Ogawa (josei manga): A 27 year old career woman, coming to terms with being dumped and treated badly at work for being too tall/well educated/ambitious etc, decides her next boyfriend will be taller, older, and richer. When she comes across a short, young, poor, beaten up 20 year old boy outside her apartment she takes him in, but only on the condition that he becomes her pet. Over time they try and negotiate what their relationship really means to them both.
I really enjoyed this. It has a few dodgy moments (including one rapist-as-love-interest, though the main characters are reasonably good about consent for manga characters) but it's funny and sweet and three dimensional, and takes itself just seriously enough. I have a feeling it might be a bit "we're not kinky we just love each other" for anyone who's actually into D/s.
Romance a significant subplot
Gokusen by Kozueko Morimoto (josei manga): The granddaughter of a yakuza (mafia) boss becomes a maths teacher at an unruly boys school. Shenanigans ensue, including a lot of rescuing her students. She eventually gets together with one of them, which would normally squick me, but she explicitly Doesn't See Him That Way until after graduation (much to his annoyance) and they relate as equals. Very funny, strongly recced.
The Queen's Thief Series by Megan Whalen Turner: Hiijinks and political shenanigans in a fantasy alternate Greece. I've only read the first three books, but they were charming, easy to read and clever, and while large sections are VERY much from a male POV the female characters are pretty amazing and important. I'm not sure how to describe the romantic relationship in without spoilers but, well. The male protagonist has nightmares about his love interest, he finds her so intimidating (that crossed the line a little for me, though only just)
(some) Homestuck fanfic: Homestuck itself doesn't concentrate on romance much, but there is a common theme of the female characters being more self confident, powerful and dangerous than the male ones, and this comes out in some of the fic, especially Dave/Terezi, though she can tend towards being tiny and cute and/or a "Strong Female Character". I particularly like Cities in Dust by cephied_variable.
The Mass Effect and Dragon Age games, also the associated fanfic: By the very nature of these sorts of games, the main character (male or female) is a world-saving hero and powerful warrior, and the commanding officer of their love interest. A lot of the companions (male or female) are written as loyal lieutenants who look up to the PC as a role model/leader, whether you romance them or not. I wouldn't play these just for the romances, but they are an enjoyable aspect, and the power dynamic is generally at least somewhat evident in the female-PC-centric fic.
The Privilege of the Sword by Ellen Kushner: I have a feeling I mainly enjoyed this for hitting some of my related but different buttons (the main character is a cross dressing woman with a sword fighting the patriarchy while rescuing damsels in femslashy ways) But the het romance definitely subverted a lot of typical fantasy romance tropes. Warning: rape triggers.
Basically gen
These don't have romantic relationships as such, but have really strong, central, committed relationships between men and women that don't fit typical patterns.
Otoyomegatari by Kaoru Mori (manga): Follows a 20 year old woman in Central Asia in the early 19th century adjusting to an arranged marriage with a 12 year old boy. Their relationship is pretty platonic but still squicked me, other than that it's incredibly well written and beautifully illustrated. Not sure I'll be able to keep reading but other people may enjoy it.
The Twelve Kingdoms (anime and books) The female main character has two very strong, positive platonic(ish) relationships with men she has a great deal of power over, and the whole story is about her overcoming the passive femininity she was raised into to become decisive and determined. There is lots of fanfic romanticising these relationships, I really liked All things grow, though it's fairly short.
******WARNING: sexual abuse triggers*******
The last two stories are so triggery they triggered me, and that doesn't happen very often. Even the descriptions may be upsetting. They're not really what I'm after, either, but do do some interesting things
The Captive Prince by freece (online novel in progress): in a world where all nobles own slaves, a prince of one country is captured and made the pleasure slave of the prince of a neighbouring enemy country (who has no idea who he is beyond his nationality, and no interest in a pleasure slave)
So, this is m/m. But it read as so blatantly a metaphor about heterosexual gender relations to me (and the sort of metaphor that wouldn't work if played straight) that I'm including it anyway. The first few pages are pretty much wall to wall triggers (of all sorts), and it isn't finished, and in typical original slash fashion the few female characters tend to show up for half a scene every five chapters to be kickass and make the male protagonists look good/sexy then vanish. But I found the dynamic that resulted from the straightforward manly man being forced to deal with being the slave of the effeminate manipulative youth really interesting, and it's really hard to put down.
Shadowheart by Laura Kinsale (romance novel): Woman is kidnapped by lithe, woobie-ish renegade who is horrible and domineering but secretly likes being sexually dominated. I hated this story and couldn't finish it, but the hero is pretty unique (if rape-y :/) and a lot of people seem to like it.
There's definitely more, but the longer I think about it the more tangled up I get trying to tell the difference between a genuine flip of gender roles and "Look at this weird gender flipped situation! Isn't it zany! Now let's fix it".
(*)Which of course is one reason to read romances that aren't m/f. But this post isn't about them.
no subject
Date: 2011-11-07 07:47 am (UTC)relatedly, experienced female/virginal male romance is one of my kinks and it is so hard to find.
do you read category romance at all? it's kind of soul-destroying to wade through the crap (and i haven't done it in years, since before my grandmother died), but every now and then you find something really good.
no subject
Date: 2011-11-07 08:27 am (UTC)There's a moderate amount of experienced female/virginal male romance in Dragon Age. Alistair, one of the most popular love interests, is a virgin, while Fenris is an amnesiac who can't remember ever having had sex (at least not consensual sex. He is also an ex slave. And an elf. Bioware likes to lay it on a bit thick sometimes) Of the several women Alistair is paired with in canon and fic, Anora and Morrigan are definitely not virgins. If you don't mind not knowing canon you could have a look on kink meme though I make no guarantees of quality, and fandom tends to be REALLY CREEPY about both Anora and Morrigan.
I've never read any category romance, do you have any recs?
no subject
Date: 2011-11-10 06:15 am (UTC)i think mr tree has played dragon age. i'm not much of a gaming person. little big planet is about all i'm good for. and ms pacman.
the only category romance rec i have is called baby down under (which is a horrid title that the author hated but in catrom you don't have any choice -- it's by an australian author set in australia, so of course they have to sell it to the overseas readers). it's pretty old, probably late 90s or early 00s, so i doubt you'd be able to get a copy. but if you're interested you can borrow mine. i'll post it to you. as long as you promise to post it back once you're done. :)
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Date: 2011-11-24 12:16 am (UTC)I bounced off the In Death series the first time I tried it but I've been meaning to give it another go.
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Date: 2011-11-28 06:19 am (UTC)now i just need your address. you can PM me if you like, or email: nullipara at gmail.
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Date: 2011-11-10 06:24 am (UTC)anyway, she's written hundreds of books, not all of which are stellar or to my taste, obviously, but i particularly love the 'in death' books (although there is a lot of fail, particularly early on in the series). i'm actually going to be nominating the fandom for yuletide. :)
no subject
Date: 2011-11-07 10:59 am (UTC)For a second there I thought that was a link to Oglaf.
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Date: 2011-11-07 12:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-11-07 11:50 am (UTC)What irritates you about them? Some of her books are better than others, but I've enjoyed a lot of them. I can think of two where the heroine is cross-dressing disguised as a boy, but the hero is still dominating the relationship. Then there's "The Grand Sophy", where the heroine isn't "missish" but the kind of person who organizes everyone; however she doesn't dominate the relationship either. So they may not be what you're looking for anyway.
You might want to check out "Crocodile on the Sandbank", the first of the Amelia Peabody mysteries by Elizabeth Peters. The heroine in this intimidates almost everyone she meets, she has a very forceful personality.
no subject
Date: 2011-11-07 12:10 pm (UTC)I loved the character of Sophie, but yeah, the romantic relationship didn't really do much for me, especially at the end.
I might check out Elizabeth Peters, though, thanks!
no subject
Date: 2011-11-07 12:21 pm (UTC)I read one Marjorie Liu book (out of my flimsy romance readings), and it had a lot of strangeness. But the interesting thing about it was, that the heroine was the one who had to be careful not to hurt the hero. An unusual dynamic, I think.
no subject
Date: 2011-11-11 07:18 am (UTC)