Thoughts about Mary Sue
Mar. 21st, 2010 07:26 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
alias_sqbrI've read a bunch of very interesting posts recently about how Mary Sues are not actually that big of a deal (beyond being generally bad writing) and maybe telling girls not to write overly awesome female characters has some underlying misogyny. This post is not about that but is partly inspired by those posts on that subject:
Oh Mary Mary and the slash writer ponders female characters.
EDIT: Valid question: what do I mean by Mary Sue?
I personally would only call a character a Mary Sue if it fit all the major hallmarks: an original female character in a fanwork who is implausibly unique, talented, and popular, badly written, and has the canon characters and plot warp around her to fit the author's wish fulfillment.
But I have seen the accusation leveled at any original female character who is in any way cool.
So, two thoughts:
1)Why gender? Why should I, as a disabled Australian woman (to choose some of the ways I differ from the "default" of able bodied American man etc) be worried that my female characters are self insert fantasies, but not my male ones that are disabled or Australian?
For me, female characters are the default. They're who I like to read, and who I like to write (of the six prose stories I have up at AO3, four have a totally female POV, one is almost all female, and one is mostly male). So if I'm going to worry about overinvesting in a character it will be because of "non-standard" things we have in common, like being disabled. I'm currently trying to write a story about a male Australian maths postgrad and am having intense issues with over identification, figuring out how to write the situation with some distance is really hard, and this has happened every time I've tried to write Australian characters in the last few years (of course, it doesn't help with fanworks that I don't like much Australian fiction :/)
I guess the fact that fanfic fandom is majority female has a lot to do with it, all the other difference people have are too variable to make broad generalisations about. (And if people started saying "Disabled fanfic writers shouldn't write overly awesome disabled characters" it uh..probably wouldn't go down so well) EDIT: But that doesn't explain why individual female writers should worry about gender the most, and from for example the slash writer ponders female characters it would appear many do.
Anyway, do any other female writers have this issue, where gender really isn't the big stumbling block? What about writers who do not identify as female etc?
2) This section was posted to the dragon_age community first, the text is basically the same but there's a bunch of interesting (albeit spoilery and somewhat context dependent) discussion in the comments which I have summarised at the end of this post.
The protagonist of Dragon Age:Origins is a basically original character saving the day and having everyone fall in love with them, and this is reflected in much of the fic. And I'm not sure that's such a bad thing. EDIT: I'm not saying the character is a Mary Sue. I'm saying fanfic about her is, or at least could be easily read that way.
The way the game works you get to control a lot about your character: their gender, appearance, species, and social position are chosen to start and give you one of six origin stories. The choices you make can have significant effects on the plot, and since there's often no obviously "right" decision required to win the game it makes sense to just play your character with whatever personality and motivations seem fitting. The plot of the game you play is broadly the same as everyone else's so it's possible to share fic and have everyone get the references (assuming they've played all six origins :)), but I know my characters feel much more like my own creations than the main characters of say a Final Fantasy game.
People talk about "My *insert character's name*", and they can be quite different. For example, two spoilery comics dealing with the poor relationship between the dwarf noble character and her brother: Siblings (she's nice and it's all his fault) and Lady Aeducan Explains it All (she's a machiavellian back stabber)
I enjoy other people's stories and engage with the PC characters mostly as I do with canon characters rather than entirely original ones, but they're not about my PC characters, not entirely. They feel about as close as the characters in an AU fanfic do to the canon ones.
Two other things about the PC character: they have three possible romantic interests (there's four choices total but two of them are straight) who, if you play the game right, are clearly very much in love with the PC. These characters are well written and voice-acted, and attractive if you squint and use your imagination.
Also, while not a prophesised chosen one or anything the PC is canonically Made Of Awesome, while some of the origins start pretty beat down and spat upon, by the end everyone is going on about what a great, talented, special hero they are.(*)
All this combines to create a lot of stories about Totally Awesome semi-original female characters who probably fit the writer's idea of what looks cool having whoever of the romantic interests the writer finds most engaging(**) fall in love with them and saving the day from the Forces of Darkness before riding off into the sunset. EDIT: Which still doesn't make them necessarily a Mary Sue, but they certainly tick a lot of the boxes.
And while Sturgeon's Law applies, the stories aren't bad. I don't read everything that comes through the comms I'm on but I would say that the "Female PC + canon romantic interest" stuff is about as good as everything else on average and I have enjoyed quite a few of them. They're certainly not all Mary Sues in the sense of being nothing but wish fulfillment. (nb there's plenty of "Male PC + canon romance", "Female PC gen", "Fic about NPCs" etc as well) Personally I prefer "Female PC has canon romance go horribly wrong", and have written a whole series of them, but my id is odd :D (it also alas reflects the way my games have tended to go)
I was thinking about what other canons would create this sort of semi-original main character. There's other computer RPGs: the Final Fantasy ones I've played the main character's personality and arc is pretty set in stone, and with what little I played of Neverwinter Nights I didn't feel like my character was a real person at all. Apparently other Bioware games like Mass Effect and Knights of the Old Republic work like Dragon Age: Origins and have similar fic. People get very invested in their tabletop roleplaying characters of course, but those are genuinely original characters and those outside your roleplaying group won't care about them any more than they will any other original character.
Some things people pointed out when I cross posted this to![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
dragon_age:
EDIT: I have no deep thoughts, but it's interesting to commare to dating sims, see for example Starry Sky. Do people write fic for them I wonder?
Anyway, those are my two thoughts! I have no final conclusion, beyond thinking people shouldn't be so locked into rigid anti-Mary Sue dogma. I guess the two things I'd like people's opinions on are the fact that individual female fanfic authors are expected to worry more about their female characters being self inserts than the ones with whom they share other significant traits, and the Mary Sue-ishness (or not) of fanfic based on particular types of canon characters (eg the protagonist of Dragon Age)
(*)An aside: it's weird for me watching ads for the game which (as well not being a very accurate representation any actual scene of the game nor it's appearance) are clearly aiming this message at Manly Male Characters played by Manly Male Gamers. They felt rather odd aimed at my characters, who really aren't very manly. Especially the guys :)
(**)Though it's important to note that this may change for different characters with the same player, I know it did for me.
Oh Mary Mary and the slash writer ponders female characters.
EDIT: Valid question: what do I mean by Mary Sue?
I personally would only call a character a Mary Sue if it fit all the major hallmarks: an original female character in a fanwork who is implausibly unique, talented, and popular, badly written, and has the canon characters and plot warp around her to fit the author's wish fulfillment.
But I have seen the accusation leveled at any original female character who is in any way cool.
So, two thoughts:
1)Why gender? Why should I, as a disabled Australian woman (to choose some of the ways I differ from the "default" of able bodied American man etc) be worried that my female characters are self insert fantasies, but not my male ones that are disabled or Australian?
For me, female characters are the default. They're who I like to read, and who I like to write (of the six prose stories I have up at AO3, four have a totally female POV, one is almost all female, and one is mostly male). So if I'm going to worry about overinvesting in a character it will be because of "non-standard" things we have in common, like being disabled. I'm currently trying to write a story about a male Australian maths postgrad and am having intense issues with over identification, figuring out how to write the situation with some distance is really hard, and this has happened every time I've tried to write Australian characters in the last few years (of course, it doesn't help with fanworks that I don't like much Australian fiction :/)
I guess the fact that fanfic fandom is majority female has a lot to do with it, all the other difference people have are too variable to make broad generalisations about. (And if people started saying "Disabled fanfic writers shouldn't write overly awesome disabled characters" it uh..probably wouldn't go down so well) EDIT: But that doesn't explain why individual female writers should worry about gender the most, and from for example the slash writer ponders female characters it would appear many do.
Anyway, do any other female writers have this issue, where gender really isn't the big stumbling block? What about writers who do not identify as female etc?
2) This section was posted to the dragon_age community first, the text is basically the same but there's a bunch of interesting (albeit spoilery and somewhat context dependent) discussion in the comments which I have summarised at the end of this post.
The protagonist of Dragon Age:Origins is a basically original character saving the day and having everyone fall in love with them, and this is reflected in much of the fic. And I'm not sure that's such a bad thing. EDIT: I'm not saying the character is a Mary Sue. I'm saying fanfic about her is, or at least could be easily read that way.
The way the game works you get to control a lot about your character: their gender, appearance, species, and social position are chosen to start and give you one of six origin stories. The choices you make can have significant effects on the plot, and since there's often no obviously "right" decision required to win the game it makes sense to just play your character with whatever personality and motivations seem fitting. The plot of the game you play is broadly the same as everyone else's so it's possible to share fic and have everyone get the references (assuming they've played all six origins :)), but I know my characters feel much more like my own creations than the main characters of say a Final Fantasy game.
People talk about "My *insert character's name*", and they can be quite different. For example, two spoilery comics dealing with the poor relationship between the dwarf noble character and her brother: Siblings (she's nice and it's all his fault) and Lady Aeducan Explains it All (she's a machiavellian back stabber)
I enjoy other people's stories and engage with the PC characters mostly as I do with canon characters rather than entirely original ones, but they're not about my PC characters, not entirely. They feel about as close as the characters in an AU fanfic do to the canon ones.
Two other things about the PC character: they have three possible romantic interests (there's four choices total but two of them are straight) who, if you play the game right, are clearly very much in love with the PC. These characters are well written and voice-acted, and attractive if you squint and use your imagination.
Also, while not a prophesised chosen one or anything the PC is canonically Made Of Awesome, while some of the origins start pretty beat down and spat upon, by the end everyone is going on about what a great, talented, special hero they are.(*)
All this combines to create a lot of stories about Totally Awesome semi-original female characters who probably fit the writer's idea of what looks cool having whoever of the romantic interests the writer finds most engaging(**) fall in love with them and saving the day from the Forces of Darkness before riding off into the sunset. EDIT: Which still doesn't make them necessarily a Mary Sue, but they certainly tick a lot of the boxes.
And while Sturgeon's Law applies, the stories aren't bad. I don't read everything that comes through the comms I'm on but I would say that the "Female PC + canon romantic interest" stuff is about as good as everything else on average and I have enjoyed quite a few of them. They're certainly not all Mary Sues in the sense of being nothing but wish fulfillment. (nb there's plenty of "Male PC + canon romance", "Female PC gen", "Fic about NPCs" etc as well) Personally I prefer "Female PC has canon romance go horribly wrong", and have written a whole series of them, but my id is odd :D (it also alas reflects the way my games have tended to go)
I was thinking about what other canons would create this sort of semi-original main character. There's other computer RPGs: the Final Fantasy ones I've played the main character's personality and arc is pretty set in stone, and with what little I played of Neverwinter Nights I didn't feel like my character was a real person at all. Apparently other Bioware games like Mass Effect and Knights of the Old Republic work like Dragon Age: Origins and have similar fic. People get very invested in their tabletop roleplaying characters of course, but those are genuinely original characters and those outside your roleplaying group won't care about them any more than they will any other original character.
Some things people pointed out when I cross posted this to
dragon_age: - There are no unambiguously happy endings to this game, so totally fluffy romantic happy endings require a moderate amount of handwaving and OOCness. Most of the origins are an oppressed minority in some way, and that oppression doesn't magically vanish by the end of the game. The one exception is the human noble (who still goes through a lot of crap and has to make some murky unpleasant decisions) and fics with that character as a protagonist are the most likely to be Mary Sue-ish.
- There's a difference between the game handing fanwriters a character who fits a lot of the markers of a Mary Sue as a protagonist who they can choose to make 3D and flawed or not, and a writer choosing to insert an OFC for no good reason.
- There's a specific subgenre of fanwriting which deliberately obscures all the details of the PC so that the player can mentally insert their own PC. See for example the comic Master and Protege by aimo. (I love this fandom, so many humourous meta-ish fancomics :))
EDIT: I have no deep thoughts, but it's interesting to commare to dating sims, see for example Starry Sky. Do people write fic for them I wonder?
Anyway, those are my two thoughts! I have no final conclusion, beyond thinking people shouldn't be so locked into rigid anti-Mary Sue dogma. I guess the two things I'd like people's opinions on are the fact that individual female fanfic authors are expected to worry more about their female characters being self inserts than the ones with whom they share other significant traits, and the Mary Sue-ishness (or not) of fanfic based on particular types of canon characters (eg the protagonist of Dragon Age)
(*)An aside: it's weird for me watching ads for the game which (as well not being a very accurate representation any actual scene of the game nor it's appearance) are clearly aiming this message at Manly Male Characters played by Manly Male Gamers. They felt rather odd aimed at my characters, who really aren't very manly. Especially the guys :)
(**)Though it's important to note that this may change for different characters with the same player, I know it did for me.
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Re: Oh it's sexism, all right.
Date: 2010-03-27 04:35 am (UTC)I guess it is a niche community thing then? I'm not really willing to go reading a whole pile of erotic fan fiction to find a counterpoint, so I'll take your word for it.
Yeah, that does sound a bit disturbing, maybe it is because people find female powerful original characters as 'unrealistic' because most literature has males in that role and it is a subconcious side effect of that? Pretty bad but hard to solve.
I don't really think the solution is encouraging Mary Sue characters though, I suppose critique should encourage writers to make believeable female main characters?
Re: Oh it's sexism, all right.
Date: 2010-03-27 04:41 am (UTC)Re: Oh it's sexism, all right.
Date: 2010-03-27 04:46 am (UTC)If you want to write about those heroes then you should use a neutral setting or make something up yourself, but when you put an Ajax or Hercules type character into Harry Potter it changes the dynamic of the whole world to the point where you'd be changing the lives and personalities of every character, because they live in a totally different world now.
Re: Oh it's sexism, all right.
Date: 2010-03-27 05:26 am (UTC)But there are cultural reasons why so many people gravitate towards fanfic, and those reasons need to be addressed adequately as well. We all want a slice of the shared pie, you know-- the one that everyone else is scarfing so happily.
Re: Oh it's sexism, all right.
Date: 2010-03-30 07:27 am (UTC)I mean, I think women (or anyone else) doing fanfic because they feel original fic is closed to them etc should be encouraged to write original stories instead, but fanfic is still a legitimate and unique form of creativity, and the solution to the issues with fanfic and the canons it's based on can't just be solved by saying "Write original stories instead".
Unless I'm missing your point?
Re: Oh it's sexism, all right.
Date: 2010-03-30 05:49 pm (UTC)Shared stories are very powerful and the desire to build upon a shared point of reference seems to be universal, and more communally satisfying than the solo work of writing new is, and that's easy to verify by the relative readerships for new as opposed to fan fic. Hell, I know that if I say that Spike and Xander are my pairing, I can garner forty responses. The same fic with Faith and Drusilla might get ten. Dave and Steve will get... umm... one or two? and Emily and Paula... *crickets*
Check out my new original femslash fic, (http://dharma-slut.dreamwidth.org/96331.html)for instance. On lj I have had three responses-- all from friends-- here, zero!
But it's what I want to read. So, I write it -- for one thing, more original fiction might someday translate to more fandoms with more women in them. And that's important.
fanfic is Art
Date: 2010-03-31 06:39 am (UTC)Something that struck me recently is that while I only got creatively involved in fanworks fandom in the last year or so, pretty much every creative thing I have ever made is to some extent fanfic, parody, or pastiche. I just used to be in denial about it, trying to put some veneer of originality over my works because I thought that that was What You Were Supposed To Do, while still trying to make the originating work or works clear enough for my satire/commentary to be clear. Until recently, these works weren't generally shared with anyone, I just wrote/drew them in notebooks or whatever to get the idea out of my head. I mean, having gotten into the whole communal thing that's great and certainly very inspiring, but I get more positive feedback for, say, "original" pictures of dragons or pretty women in steampunk outfits than I do for gen fanworks about non-white women. I spent many years trying to express my ideas via original fiction and fanworks suit me SO much better (the extra positive feedback is a nice bonus, but it's not my primary motivating factor).
I know women who've gone directly from making fanworks to being hired to create more of the canon that inspired them. I agree there need to be more published original works by women, and with the main points in Why fanfiction keeps us poor but "just write original fic" is not a complete solution. And speaking for myself I would say I have much better (but still vanishingly low) odds of finding commercial success through parody comics, fanart, or self publishing my Jane Austen fanfic.
Re: fanfic is Art
Date: 2010-03-31 07:30 am (UTC)Re: fanfic is Art
Date: 2010-03-31 08:02 am (UTC)Here's some examples of art I've done that I think would be vastly less effective as original works if they made any sense at all, even if I made an original setting to go around them.
Genderswap (EDIT: which is designed to highlight gender issues in the source): http://sqbr.deviantart.com/art/Gender-reversed-Star-Trek-136073180
Crossover: http://sqbr.deviantart.com/art/Vampire-Diaries-Amazing-Race-144623093 (ok, I guess I could cross over two of my own original worlds)
Changing the meaning of the text of a novel by illustrating it: http://sqbr.deviantart.com/art/Steampunk-Pride-and-Prejudice2-136075408
AU to highlight flaws in the original (has the Egyptians saving themselves from the Gu'ald) which as a result comments on not only Stargate but scifi in general: http://archiveofourown.org/works/3602/chapters/4574
Of course, most fancreators don't specialise in satirical crack the way I do, so my POV is a bit unusual (and thus, most overgeneralising "why we make slash/fanfic/fanworks" meta irritates me)
Re: fanfic is Art
Date: 2010-03-31 06:48 pm (UTC)That is certainly a form of fanworks, and I've read some excellent stories that were also completely referential to the original material-- I was completely at sea, even as I was enjoying the craftsmanship.
But I think that the usages we are talking about, with the mary sue issue and all, are usually motivated by more general story-telling desires...
Re: fanfic is Art
Date: 2010-04-06 06:10 am (UTC)Going back to your original comment: I agree that the "original character shoehorned into canon" kind of Mary Sue can be largely avoided by the writers of such stories writing actual original fiction instead. But "write original fiction instead" is not a complete solution to the issues around Mary Sues.
Re: fanfic is Art
Date: 2010-04-06 04:58 pm (UTC)One of the issues around fanfic Mary Sues, as I've said, is that we want to be part of the common narrative. As a kid I wanted to be part of the gang-- Robin Hood's gang, at that time, in the merry greenwood. I didn't want to have to make my own gang. Just for one example.
Is that the sort of thing you mean?