Thoughts about Mary Sue

[alias_sqbr]

I've read a bunch of very interesting posts recently about how Mary Sues are not actually that big of a deal (beyond being generally bad writing) and maybe telling girls not to write overly awesome female characters has some underlying misogyny. This post is not about that but is partly inspired by those posts on that subject:
Oh Mary Mary and the slash writer ponders female characters.

EDIT: Valid question: what do I mean by Mary Sue?
I personally would only call a character a Mary Sue if it fit all the major hallmarks: an original female character in a fanwork who is implausibly unique, talented, and popular, badly written, and has the canon characters and plot warp around her to fit the author's wish fulfillment.
But I have seen the accusation leveled at any original female character who is in any way cool.

So, two thoughts:

1)Why gender? Why should I, as a disabled Australian woman (to choose some of the ways I differ from the "default" of able bodied American man etc) be worried that my female characters are self insert fantasies, but not my male ones that are disabled or Australian?

For me, female characters are the default. They're who I like to read, and who I like to write (of the six prose stories I have up at AO3, four have a totally female POV, one is almost all female, and one is mostly male). So if I'm going to worry about overinvesting in a character it will be because of "non-standard" things we have in common, like being disabled. I'm currently trying to write a story about a male Australian maths postgrad and am having intense issues with over identification, figuring out how to write the situation with some distance is really hard, and this has happened every time I've tried to write Australian characters in the last few years (of course, it doesn't help with fanworks that I don't like much Australian fiction :/)

I guess the fact that fanfic fandom is majority female has a lot to do with it, all the other difference people have are too variable to make broad generalisations about. (And if people started saying "Disabled fanfic writers shouldn't write overly awesome disabled characters" it uh..probably wouldn't go down so well) EDIT: But that doesn't explain why individual female writers should worry about gender the most, and from for example the slash writer ponders female characters it would appear many do.

Anyway, do any other female writers have this issue, where gender really isn't the big stumbling block? What about writers who do not identify as female etc?

2) This section was posted to the dragon_age community first, the text is basically the same but there's a bunch of interesting (albeit spoilery and somewhat context dependent) discussion in the comments which I have summarised at the end of this post.

The protagonist of Dragon Age:Origins is a basically original character saving the day and having everyone fall in love with them, and this is reflected in much of the fic. And I'm not sure that's such a bad thing. EDIT: I'm not saying the character is a Mary Sue. I'm saying fanfic about her is, or at least could be easily read that way.

The way the game works you get to control a lot about your character: their gender, appearance, species, and social position are chosen to start and give you one of six origin stories. The choices you make can have significant effects on the plot, and since there's often no obviously "right" decision required to win the game it makes sense to just play your character with whatever personality and motivations seem fitting. The plot of the game you play is broadly the same as everyone else's so it's possible to share fic and have everyone get the references (assuming they've played all six origins :)), but I know my characters feel much more like my own creations than the main characters of say a Final Fantasy game.

People talk about "My *insert character's name*", and they can be quite different. For example, two spoilery comics dealing with the poor relationship between the dwarf noble character and her brother: Siblings (she's nice and it's all his fault) and Lady Aeducan Explains it All (she's a machiavellian back stabber)

I enjoy other people's stories and engage with the PC characters mostly as I do with canon characters rather than entirely original ones, but they're not about my PC characters, not entirely. They feel about as close as the characters in an AU fanfic do to the canon ones.

Two other things about the PC character: they have three possible romantic interests (there's four choices total but two of them are straight) who, if you play the game right, are clearly very much in love with the PC. These characters are well written and voice-acted, and attractive if you squint and use your imagination.
Also, while not a prophesised chosen one or anything the PC is canonically Made Of Awesome, while some of the origins start pretty beat down and spat upon, by the end everyone is going on about what a great, talented, special hero they are.(*)

All this combines to create a lot of stories about Totally Awesome semi-original female characters who probably fit the writer's idea of what looks cool having whoever of the romantic interests the writer finds most engaging(**) fall in love with them and saving the day from the Forces of Darkness before riding off into the sunset. EDIT: Which still doesn't make them necessarily a Mary Sue, but they certainly tick a lot of the boxes.

And while Sturgeon's Law applies, the stories aren't bad. I don't read everything that comes through the comms I'm on but I would say that the "Female PC + canon romantic interest" stuff is about as good as everything else on average and I have enjoyed quite a few of them. They're certainly not all Mary Sues in the sense of being nothing but wish fulfillment. (nb there's plenty of "Male PC + canon romance", "Female PC gen", "Fic about NPCs" etc as well) Personally I prefer "Female PC has canon romance go horribly wrong", and have written a whole series of them, but my id is odd :D (it also alas reflects the way my games have tended to go)

I was thinking about what other canons would create this sort of semi-original main character. There's other computer RPGs: the Final Fantasy ones I've played the main character's personality and arc is pretty set in stone, and with what little I played of Neverwinter Nights I didn't feel like my character was a real person at all. Apparently other Bioware games like Mass Effect and Knights of the Old Republic work like Dragon Age: Origins and have similar fic. People get very invested in their tabletop roleplaying characters of course, but those are genuinely original characters and those outside your roleplaying group won't care about them any more than they will any other original character.

Some things people pointed out when I cross posted this to dragon_age:

• There are no unambiguously happy endings to this game, so totally fluffy romantic happy endings require a moderate amount of handwaving and OOCness. Most of the origins are an oppressed minority in some way, and that oppression doesn't magically vanish by the end of the game. The one exception is the human noble (who still goes through a lot of crap and has to make some murky unpleasant decisions) and fics with that character as a protagonist are the most likely to be Mary Sue-ish.
  
• There's a difference between the game handing fanwriters a character who fits a lot of the markers of a Mary Sue as a protagonist who they can choose to make 3D and flawed or not, and a writer choosing to insert an OFC for no good reason.
  
• There's a specific subgenre of fanwriting which deliberately obscures all the details of the PC so that the player can mentally insert their own PC. See for example the comic Master and Protege by aimo. (I love this fandom, so many humourous meta-ish fancomics :))
  

EDIT: I have no deep thoughts, but it's interesting to commare to dating sims, see for example Starry Sky. Do people write fic for them I wonder?

Anyway, those are my two thoughts! I have no final conclusion, beyond thinking people shouldn't be so locked into rigid anti-Mary Sue dogma. I guess the two things I'd like people's opinions on are the fact that individual female fanfic authors are expected to worry more about their female characters being self inserts than the ones with whom they share other significant traits, and the Mary Sue-ishness (or not) of fanfic based on particular types of canon characters (eg the protagonist of Dragon Age)

(*)An aside: it's weird for me watching ads for the game which (as well not being a very accurate representation any actual scene of the game nor it's appearance) are clearly aiming this message at Manly Male Characters played by Manly Male Gamers. They felt rather odd aimed at my characters, who really aren't very manly. Especially the guys :)
(**)Though it's important to note that this may change for different characters with the same player, I know it did for me.

Comments

Re: Contemptuous Arbiter? You really call yourself that? Is that fair warning, or what!

[dharma-slut.livejournal.com]

I would say that different medias and different contexts must be judged by different standards, yes.

In what ways?

Superhero comics may show problematic aspects of self-insertion but they are completely different.

In what way?

If you are reading... you're more likely to wince and reject the character as a Mary Sue.

Ah, but we are not talking about reading-- we are talking about writing. This post is about writing.

Original fiction is more tolerant of powerful characters and comics even more so, Superman basically proves that.

Why is that? More to the point, why does Superman prove that?

You can have female super heroes that get gratitude of the world as well.

Not in fanfiction you can't-- because she will be labeled a mary sue...

Yes, canon characters are different to fan fiction original characters.

In what way?

Everyone but me is wrong (it's a heavy burden I bear)

[alias_sqbr]

I think both of your arguments are flawed.

I agree with your basic point about the different responses to characters based on their gender, but I think canon characters are different to fanfic ones, and comparing original male characters to fanfic female ones dilutes your argument.

Superman is given more respect than Twilight, which is blatant wish fulfillment aimed at women.
Woobie!Snape is way more popular than Woobie!Bellatrix Lestrange.

Also, Superman is given more respect than the original hero of a spin off novel by a male writer. One can definitely argue that there's a gendered component to the disrespect given derivative characters, but it's not just about female characters by women getting less respect.

Hmm. And I'm not sure if Bella Swan gets more or less respect than woobie!Snape.

Re: Everyone but me is wrong (it's a heavy burden I bear)

[dharma-slut.livejournal.com]

My comments and comparisons go back to the original motivations of the storytellers-- which is the same set no matter what the tradition is. Whether it's an original fiction or derivative, one motivation is to see oneself in the story.

Superman was a twinkle in some guy's eye eighty years ago. He was created as wish-fulfillment. Just because he got published and became canon does not change the original creative impulse. And those impulses are still the same, even for writers of fan fiction.

It seems pretty clear that a girl saving the world is a big nono for women readers. We seem to dwell on the trappings-- the silver hair and the flying kitty-- and let us not forget the romantic and sexual desirability-- and how many comms are out there that were cerated expressly to stomp on the need to be important in the narrative that these trappings point out? I call misogyny, personally.Women-led but women are good at hating themselves.

Re: Everyone but me is wrong (it's a heavy burden I bear)

[alias_sqbr]

I think the underlying motivations between fanfic and original fic are similar, but the expressions are sufficiently different that they can't always be directly compared.

I'm not arguing with you on the misogyny. I just think your examples confuse things because gender isn't the only thing they differ on. We can argue on how similar or different original fic and fanfic are (on which I think we may disagree), but that's a different argument to the one about the way works by women are treated (on which I'd say we agree), even if on a meta level they're connected since fanfic is more often written by women.

(Also, I have a sneaking suspicion some of your replies to me got deleted when I cleared out my inbox. My apologies if this is true)

Re: Contemptuous Arbiter? You really call yourself that? Is that fair warning, or what!

[tattered-pinion.livejournal.com]

Well, different social contexts have different backgrounds for readers and writers. That's a lot less relevant for Superman though, as whilst he was invented like the 30's, he is still being written about today, so there's flexibility there.

I would think that superhero comics are different as they are, by definition, about super powered characters. If you were writing a Heroes fan fiction then you'd have a lot more leeway with over the top awesome.

Okay, we were talking about the relationship between the reader and writer in that writers avoid Mary Sue characters due to the backlash of readers being critical of them though.

I think you're wrong about female super heroes just simply being Mary Sues. There are plenty of original fiction powerful female characters that aren't insulted for being Mary Sue characters. Whilst not a super hero (I don't read super hero stuff, I'm not really qualified to discuss it in depth) you have literary creations like Fern Capel (By Jan Siegel) or Althea (By Robin Hobb) who are powerful or central female characters who aren't self inserts or even close, they are well developed and excellent females written by great authors who certainly (Althea more than Fern though) have their awesome kickass moments.

I think canon characters are different to fan fiction characters when we're talking about Mary Sue's because part of my definition of a Mary Sue is when her exaggerated characteristics break my suspension of disbelief for the setting. When I read fan fiction I go into it with an expection and knowledge of the setting, whereas with a published book I'm reading for the first time the word is build around the main characters so it feels more natural when they are unique and special.
Frodo being one of the few strong enough to carry the ring is totally fine because, well, that is the book. If you had Frodocles, his dashing friend also be able to do it completely fine then that'd be a bit jarring.

This is not about final product, it's about motives in writing

[dharma-slut.livejournal.com]

Every young storyteller who wishes to join the narrative will have to do so by means of self insertion.

Women who self-insert are hit in the face with the mary sue label.

Re: This is not about final product, it's about motives in writing

[tattered-pinion.livejournal.com]

That's not true though. You can write a self insertion character who is the same gender as you and it is fine, as long as that character isn't a setting and immersion breaking anomaly.

Re: This is not about final product, it's about motives in writing

[dharma-slut.livejournal.com]

Um.

Are you talking theoretically?

Because I am talking about real life. Real women who really write and really do get slapped down by other real women.

I quote from a convo on my own blog, made by a person who mods a very large fiction comunity;

So....my advice to younger writers trying their hands at OFC has been consistent for a decade: do whatever you want but NEVER pair her up with the hero. EVER. It's a major turnoff for most fanfic readers and no amount of begging, pleading and crying is gonna get the readers to change their minds about that. Make her a pal, make her a boss, a passer-by, a villian, ANYTHING but the love interest.

When I said I thought her advice was counter-productive and stifling, she was surprised and hurt, and told me she was only looking out for the health of the fandom.

Here's the only anti-sue comm link I still have; heave ho (http://community.livejournal.com/heave_ho/)

Re: This is not about final product, it's about motives in writing

[tattered-pinion.livejournal.com]

How is that different for a male OC with, say, Buffy or something?

An OMC won't be called a mary sue, even if he fits the definition.

[dharma-slut.livejournal.com]

And I've never seen a women-written story that focusses on Buffy's romances, except through the eyes of Angel or Spike.

Re: This is not about final product, it's about motives in writing

[tattered-pinion.livejournal.com]

This is from that community and it seems perfectly reasonable. I agree that it is probably good advice for young authors writing fan fiction to probably avoid putting in a super romance with the star of the original fiction, unless you're just writing porn or something, as it is pretty jarring to change the centrepoint of the setting (The hero or heroine or whatever) in that way. I can be done well but it is hard for young authors, especially fan fiction authors.

"
A Mary Sue is born when an author's love for and/or identification with a fictional character causes the author to set that character above whatever aspects of rules and realism the author finds undesirable. The more that the author exalts this "darling" at the expense of the rest of the story, the more of a Mary Sue the character becomes. Mary Sue is impervious to failure and resistant to all in-story attempts at criticism and humiliation; any attempt at an external critique usually provokes an authorial temper tantrum. With a preference for style over substance, attitude over empathy, and romantic relationships above all others, the Mary Sue is nevertheless a popular character type due to her function as cheap wish-fulfillment.

A fanfic containing (and therefore starring) a Mary Sue is known as a Suefic. The term originated in fandom, where the female Sue is omnipresent, but there are male varieties as well. Mary Sue's XY counterpart1 is called Gary Stu, Marty Stu, or Marty Sam; all of these are synonymous plays on the feminine blanket term."

I think it is fucked up, real bad, controlling, and debilitating advice.

[dharma-slut.livejournal.com]

and that the nice way in which the words are arranged in the comm profile are belied by the actual reviews the members have posted which comb a fic for the least little nit and hold it all up for derision.

Look, if all that is important to you is the precise definition of the term-- we've established it.

But I think it's far, far more important to examine its effect on women who want to write about awesome women.

Re: I think it is fucked up, real bad, controlling, and debilitating advice.

[tattered-pinion.livejournal.com]

Right. Well, if you want to write about awesome women who are unique and amazing in every way and have no flaws then write super hero fiction or something or find a specific niche audience for it because if you want to write about delicate and unique snowflakes by inserting them into fan fiction then people are likely to disapprove.

Re: I think it is fucked up, real bad, controlling, and debilitating advice.

[dharma-slut.livejournal.com]

Uh huh.

You still miss the point.

Female original characters in fanfic are ALL labelled mary sue by the community, no matter what-- but I can't belabor that point any more than I have done so far.

Re: I think it is fucked up, real bad, controlling, and debilitating advice.

[tattered-pinion.livejournal.com]

Okay! Fair enough then.

Re: I think it is fucked up, real bad, controlling, and debilitating advice.

[tattered-pinion.livejournal.com]

Also, you should really stay away from absolutes. It makes it hard to take you seriously.

The first link is all I checked but it seemed good.

http://tinyurl.com/yhjlru8

Re: I think it is fucked up, real bad, controlling, and debilitating advice.

[dharma-slut.livejournal.com]

Hm. That first link, http://forum.fanfiction.net/topic/2378/37604/1/ starts off with one post that intimates a "yes" to your question, and almost no one else agrees with her; moreover it's dated '05 and the anti-sue crusade has become more virulent in the past five years.

Re: I think it is fucked up, real bad, controlling, and debilitating advice.

[tattered-pinion.livejournal.com]

Though there is some hilarious stuff about Mary Sues on fanfiction.net:

"Now, have you ever heard of a Mary-Sue?

Most, not all, original female characters are wish-fulfillment fantasies, AKA Mary-Sues. Because they are wish-fullfillment fantasies, they are usually improbably beautiful, perfect in nearly every way, they're all phenomenally talented, well-dressed, have Cinderella backgrounds where they were abused in some way for no good reason but jealousy, everybody loves them, and they're always right. They are also described with far too many adjectives. It is not possible that a Mary-Sue could ever have to use the bathroom. She's far too perfect for that.

They also are just the perfect match for whoever the writer's lust object might be, in this case, Johnny Storm or Cillian Murphy's character, or Gerard Butler's character, or--fill in the blank.

Mary-Sues are not very interesting to anyone but the writers who come up with them.

On the other hand, I write stories with original female characters, and they always do wind up falling for a male canon character. So why do I do this, and what makes my OFC's NOT Mary-Sues?

I write OFCs who fall in love with male canon characters for the same reason that Jane Austen's novels all have love stories in them--and both Charlotte and Emily Bronte's, and any number of other works of great literature--because it's one of the oldest plots there is, one of the most compelling, and one which offers so much to work with.

They're not just love stories, they're about a whole cast of characters who interact and come into conflict. They're fun. You can work in all different sorts of themes and comments into them--how will money, or the lack thereof, affect their relationship? Does he really care about her, or is he proposing for another reason?

But the spectre of Mary-Sue--how to avoid her?

Personally, I make my OFCs imperfect from the start. Nobody, but nobody looks like Angelina Jolie without a whole team of people, personal trainers, dieticians, wardrobe assistants, make-up artists, plastic surgeons, etc, to help them. Imperfect inside and out--insecurities, bad habits, fears. Bad teeth, frizzy hair, ordinary features.

I also don't describe them very much. In Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice, we never find out what color hair the heroine, Elizabeth Bennett, has--or much else about her appearance. What she thinks and feels and does is of much greater importance than what she looks like.

Overly traumatic backgrounds are also an error. I have read stories where there was an OFC who, despite being a prostitute from the age of four and kept addicted to drugs by her hideous family, still acted, dressed, looked, and spoke like a beauty queen from a nice suburban home.

I think I have said quite enough here, so I will close with this. I don't write about boys rather than girls because I do not care for slash."

Re: Contemptuous Arbiter? You really call yourself that? Is that fair warning, or what!

[tattered-pinion.livejournal.com]

Oh, I don't know who this backs up, but have you read/heard of the Honor Harrington stuff? It is written by David Webber and she becomes super powerful and stuff in a fairly unbelieveable way towards the end. Some people see her as a super Mary Sue but she isn't at all an author self insert, we know this because there is a self insert who she has sex with and falls in love with but then he dies :P

Yeah, I don't really know what that says about the argument but it super relevant SOMEHOW I think!

[dharma-slut.livejournal.com]

oh now, that's interesting, and the first time I think I've ever heard of an actual male mary sue phenomenon. (The male love interest who dies would be M-S, I think)

[tattered-pinion.livejournal.com]

Yeah, though he has no real powers or anything and it just a pretty normal guy who the main character happens to love. idk, it is interesting though!

[dharma-slut.livejournal.com]

Well, here is the thing;

IF that character had been female, and IF the writer had been female, she would have been accused of mary-sueism.

[tattered-pinion.livejournal.com]

Well, he has be accused of being a terrible author for putting a self-insert in, but I don't think the term 'Mary Sue' applies, because I feel that is for a disbelievable character due to their level of awesome. His self insert is completely normal and believeable.

[dharma-slut.livejournal.com]

But that term would have been used ANYWAY.

[tattered-pinion.livejournal.com]

I doubt it. Naomi Novak's Will Laurence is a male main character and he has relationships with some powerful women (Like Jane Roland, an Admiral that outranks him and bosses around the men below her) and in no way is Jane a mary sue or anything like that.