Where are the jews in medieval fantasy?
May. 18th, 2008 10:13 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
alias_sqbrDisclaimer: fantasy is not my favourite genre, so I may simply be missing a whole swathe of books which disprove my argument. Also, I'm pretty ignorant about history, so may be spouting crap. My apologies if so :)
A lot of fantasy novels are set in Europe, or region which is obviously meant to represent Europe, set roughly during the medieval/renaissance eras. As well as analogs of european countries like England or France there are also analogs (or straight depictions) of the countries/ethnic groups which interacted with europe in this time ie Asia (Carthak in "The Emporer Mage"), the middle east (the Roknari in the Chalion books), Roma (gypsies) (the Tsingani in Kushiel's Legacy) etc. These depictions are often very stereotypical and exoticised, relying largely on the rather racist and essentialist attitudes of the time rather than modern understandings of what those cultures were/are actually like.
But it suddenly struck me recently: where are the jews? Jews played an important part in european history, and (as far as I can tell) were present in fairly large numbers in most european countries. Yet I can't think of any fantasy which has a non-nomadic discriminated against group which lives within multiple "european" countries and identifies as a separate subculture/religion(*). The closest I can come up with are non-human races (like the ghemphs from "The Isles of Glory"), which gives a biological reason for them to keep to themselves and be treated with suspicion by the locals. I think that's a bit creepy when you think about it as a direct metaphor.
So, have I just been reading the wrong books? Or is this a real blindspot in fantasy? Some googling found me Gentlemen of the Road by Michael Chabon, about "a fabled kingdom of wild, red-haired Jews on the western shore of the Caspian Sea", a list of sff by jews, and a bunch of anti-Semitism.
If I'm not imagining it, would people say it's because people aren't comfortable using the racist stereotypes of the time (good!) and don't want to accurately depict how nasty the antisemitism was? (The same way a lot of authors shy away from accurate depictions of the classism and sexism etc) Or is it just because a lot of these stories are based on England, which expelled it's jews from 1290-1656, pretty much exactly the era these stories are set in? In any case I think it's a pity, but I guess my desire for imagination and originality is one of the reasons I tend to avoid fantasy :/
EDIT: See the comments for examples of some medieval fantasy that does have human jewish analogues (and feel free to mention any more you know of). Also there was a bit of discussion on the subject here.
(*) these seem like the most signifiant qualities, at least the ones which lend themselves to telling a different sort of story to the usual fantasy fare.
A lot of fantasy novels are set in Europe, or region which is obviously meant to represent Europe, set roughly during the medieval/renaissance eras. As well as analogs of european countries like England or France there are also analogs (or straight depictions) of the countries/ethnic groups which interacted with europe in this time ie Asia (Carthak in "The Emporer Mage"), the middle east (the Roknari in the Chalion books), Roma (gypsies) (the Tsingani in Kushiel's Legacy) etc. These depictions are often very stereotypical and exoticised, relying largely on the rather racist and essentialist attitudes of the time rather than modern understandings of what those cultures were/are actually like.
But it suddenly struck me recently: where are the jews? Jews played an important part in european history, and (as far as I can tell) were present in fairly large numbers in most european countries. Yet I can't think of any fantasy which has a non-nomadic discriminated against group which lives within multiple "european" countries and identifies as a separate subculture/religion(*). The closest I can come up with are non-human races (like the ghemphs from "The Isles of Glory"), which gives a biological reason for them to keep to themselves and be treated with suspicion by the locals. I think that's a bit creepy when you think about it as a direct metaphor.
So, have I just been reading the wrong books? Or is this a real blindspot in fantasy? Some googling found me Gentlemen of the Road by Michael Chabon, about "a fabled kingdom of wild, red-haired Jews on the western shore of the Caspian Sea", a list of sff by jews, and a bunch of anti-Semitism.
If I'm not imagining it, would people say it's because people aren't comfortable using the racist stereotypes of the time (good!) and don't want to accurately depict how nasty the antisemitism was? (The same way a lot of authors shy away from accurate depictions of the classism and sexism etc) Or is it just because a lot of these stories are based on England, which expelled it's jews from 1290-1656, pretty much exactly the era these stories are set in? In any case I think it's a pity, but I guess my desire for imagination and originality is one of the reasons I tend to avoid fantasy :/
EDIT: See the comments for examples of some medieval fantasy that does have human jewish analogues (and feel free to mention any more you know of). Also there was a bit of discussion on the subject here.
(*) these seem like the most signifiant qualities, at least the ones which lend themselves to telling a different sort of story to the usual fantasy fare.
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Date: 2008-05-18 02:24 am (UTC)I'm kinda glad though that it isn't obvious that we are in there, because it *would* be disgustingly stereotyped.
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Date: 2008-05-18 08:12 am (UTC)Mm, I can kind of see that. And there's lots of other non-human races who fit the bill, look at the goblins in HP. Actually..on second thoughts, don't.
I'm kinda glad though that it isn't obvious that we are in there, because it *would* be disgustingly stereotyped.
Yeah, I guess. But the fact that it doesn't even occur to anyone to put you(*) there feels a bit like...erasure.
That and it says something that noone seems to object to all the other racist portrayals :/
(*) Being only one quarter jewish I don't feel comfortable saying "we", but I think one reason it bugs me is because I have no context to imagine what life was like for my jewish forbears in those times, they're not included in the mental image my culture has given me of the past. Which may have something to do with me reading a lot more fantasy than history books, but hey :)
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Date: 2008-05-18 03:00 pm (UTC)To me it's really just a case of people writing fantasy and borrowing medieval stuff from it because of the romance of it all, so of course they aren't going to write about some random oppressed minority group that was around at the time. I am Jewish, and it's never occurred to me in the slightest that anyone would purposely put a group into their story that's analogous unless they're specifically referencing actual medieval Europe. I should probably note that I don't read into things and I strongly dislike it when other people read into things what I feel is too much, and this is part of that. Calling it erasure sounds like a huge overreaction to me, honestly. And I don't think I've ever read a history book in my life, but my knowledge of the past isn't informed by swords and sorcery.
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Date: 2008-05-20 04:17 am (UTC)Yeah, the problem with this post is I was figuring out what I thought while I wrote it, and didn't express myself very well. (I'm still figuring that out, btw, so take this comment with a grain of salt :)) I can see how it would be a bit irritating, sorry about that :/
What I meant was: I think the fact that it doesn't occur to fantasy writers (or me, until recently) to even consider having a group like the jews in their story is a symptom of the way jews don't play a part in most people's mental picture of medieval europe. Which I don't think is neccesarily a sign of racism so much as a symptom of how generally over-simplistic and crap most people's understanding of the past is (including mine).
Really, to make any sense this post needed to be preceded by me getting a good hold on what fantasy is and what relationship it has to real history (such a hold I do not have). Maybe I should do a post on that instead :)
Also I got a little sidetracked by my ongoing dissatisfaction with how unimaginative and same-y most fantasy is: Personally I prefer fantasy which, while not neccesarily actually true, feels true and real, and I find this tends to happen when the author does some research and takes some of the more interesting and underused bits of history as inspiration.
Other than that I just like going "Hey, here's a fairly obvious type of story noone seems to be telling, why is that?".
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Date: 2009-05-09 11:36 pm (UTC)Not just because the Jews dont define it that way (for them it's binary, the systems by which they make the decision vary, but I am unaware of a non-binary method by which those who identify as a Jewish group have members of partial nature [to distinguish from those systems in which out-crossing/dominating culture intrusion will allow membership in the tribe].)
This also factors into this because the cultures in which the Jews resided (in the time frame in question) did the same thing. One could be a Jew, or not a Jew.
When organised anti-semitism rears it's head, that same rubric comes back (and often the application is one which is at variance with the Jewish definition. Matrilineal membership for the one, and any "drop" of "tainted" blood in the other.
This matters, in context, because on of the things which is common in the "exotic outgroup" school of writing is partial membership, to bring it back to topic.
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Date: 2009-05-10 06:36 am (UTC)My ideas about jewishness have matured a bit since I wrote this post, and I avoid talking about being "1/x" of anything, since ethnicity doesn't work that way and it ties into racist ideas of race as objective biology.
Anyway, while I agree it's more accurate simply to say that I'm not jewish I still have some connection with jewishness, and feel a fairly strong connection with my jewish ancestors who lived in medieval europe. (As much as I do with any of my ancestors from way back when)
As a sidenote, afaict the nazis didn't use a one-drop rule, it was something like if you only had one jewish grandparent you were ok, as long as it wasn't your paternal grandfather. (And thus I would have been saved but my mother would not. Huzzah)
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Date: 2009-05-10 06:43 am (UTC)The nazis were confused on the subject, even though they had regulations. There was no safe way to be even a little bit Jewish. Much like the Marrano in Spain, they were always at risk of being denounced, even if they met all the legal requirements for being, "not-Jewish".
Crazy times, crazy people.
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Date: 2009-05-13 04:22 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-18 02:28 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-18 08:13 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-18 03:57 am (UTC)That's all that springs to mind offhand.
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Date: 2008-05-18 08:14 am (UTC)They are totally not ringing a bell (I haven't read those books in years) but do sound about right.
Gee, if Eddings can do it it can't be that hard :)
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Date: 2008-05-18 10:12 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-18 04:46 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-18 06:29 am (UTC)To which I would ask "How is the presence of Jews a necessary part of the romance of the period?" What authors, in my opinion, have been inspired by are the ideas of feudalism, chivalry, paganism, and the heroic epic, which populated our modern romantic conceptions of the time.
One must not forget the fact that fantasy is fantasy, and I do not think that maligned racial minorities are a necessary part of fantasy (unless they happen to be of the magical or crazy cult varieties). There is, indeed, a lot of racism in fantasy, but it is usually rather heroic.
Or perhaps it is that "essentialism" that you spoke of. Fantasy often portrays different groups as being different in their very essence, rather than for arbitrary reasons. Thus the "Jews" of such worlds are not humans.
But that is just my opinion, which may be somewhat biased since I personally don't actually see what the fuss is really about.
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Date: 2008-05-18 08:25 am (UTC)Pretty much, yes. Since I tend not to read historical fantasy, too much like reading a text book :)
To which I would ask "How is the presence of Jews a necessary part of the romance of the period?
They're not necessary, and I totally understand not including them in any given book (there's lots of things from history which get ignored in any given book) It's the fact that they're never mentioned which is, to me, interesting. I mean I can understand if you're writing completely mythic arthurian stuff, but a lot of fantasy includes various less heroic stuff and steals ideas from real history to make things more interesting/real, so why is this particular bit so rarely stolen?
There is, indeed, a lot of racism in fantasy, but it is usually rather heroic.
My brain is trying to parse the concept of "heroic racism", but all I'm getting is a Klansman fighting a dragon.
Or perhaps it is that "essentialism" that you spoke of. Fantasy often portrays different groups as being different in their very essence, rather than for arbitrary reasons. Thus the "Jews" of such worlds are not humans.
Well, yes. I should have made it more clear: I'm mostly talking about fantasy which is just about humans, where the different "races" are just people. And I don't know if you've read my rants about the portrayal of race in sff, but while I personally understand the appeal of that sort of essentialism, and think it can be a useful tool for writing fantasy (Tolkein uses it well, imo), it can very easily turn into Old Skool racism with a veneer of metaphor, and it's something readers and writers of sff should keep an eye out for.
But that is just my opinion, which may be somewhat biased since I personally don't actually see what the fuss is really about.
I just think it's interesting. I like finding the stories that noone tells and asking why not.
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Date: 2008-05-18 08:58 am (UTC)What I mean is racial "us and them" mentality where the hero leads his people to triumph over the other race, who are obviously all evil.
If "jews" were to be in fantasy, I could actually see them as being more of a main character than some race in the background. Perhaps most authors just choose less original reasons for a hero to be downtrodden at birth than religious ones.
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Date: 2008-05-20 04:24 am (UTC)Ahhh. Yeah, I'm not generally a big fan of that sort of story, unless they're really evil all the way, like Orcs.
If "jews" were to be in fantasy, I could actually see them as being more of a main character than some race in the background. Perhaps most authors just choose less original reasons for a hero to be downtrodden at birth than religious ones.
Absolutely.
Really, I think part of the problem is that what I think makes for a good story (original ideas, subtle characterisation, pluralistic and complex ethical boundaries(*)) is not what most fantasy authors are trying to write.
(*)*ponders why I still don't like a lot of fantasy which fits that description* Adds: "But not long and dull or depressing" :)
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Date: 2008-05-18 07:34 am (UTC)I also think there are actually quite a few (though my fantasy literature knowledge is limited) cases that could be interpreted as metaphors for Jewish groups but they are less explicit than other groups, due to less obvious physical differences between Jews and Default White Race.
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Date: 2008-05-18 08:27 am (UTC)I also think there are actually quite a few (though my fantasy literature knowledge is limited) cases that could be interpreted as metaphors for Jewish groups but they are less explicit than other groups, due to less obvious physical differences between Jews and Default White Race.
Quite possibly.
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Date: 2008-05-18 01:36 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-20 04:29 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-13 05:14 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-14 05:28 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-18 01:45 pm (UTC)My impression is that anti-Semitism was a pretty fundamental part of medieval Christianity (and the Muslims didn't like them either). It's genuinely puzzling how they managed to survive, actually - when every account is of Jewish villages getting massacred or having all their material wealth stolen, it's a wonder that there's always more (seemingly prosperous) Jewish villages for the next lot of itinerant thugs to smash to bits.
As far as fantasy literature, I would say that most authors probably just don't think of it. Given that the majority of medieval fantasy is based much more heavily on the established genre tropes than an understanding of the wider context of medieval history (and since fantasy publishers seem to be incredibly conservative), there's a lot of regurgitation, and the inclusion of Jews simply hasn't been established. That, and it would be quite hard to reconcile modern sensibilities about race with the actions of authentic medieval characters (without making the Jewish analogue one of those inherently evil non-human races that it's okay to oppress and still be heroic). The lack of Jews in England during the later medieval period is also definitely something to consider.
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Date: 2008-05-20 07:05 am (UTC)Mmm, absolutely.
That, and it would be quite hard to reconcile modern sensibilities about race with the actions of authentic medieval characters (without making the Jewish analogue one of those inherently evil non-human races that it's okay to oppress and still be heroic).
I don't know that it would be any harder than reconciling the horrible classism and sexism, which people seem to manage. Or the equally nasty racism towards the Roma. You just make your hero above that sort of thing :)
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Date: 2008-06-04 08:33 am (UTC)Also, the Lions of Al-Rassan mentions the Jewish people in a equally undisguised manner (the Kindath). I'd argue that the book is not quite fantasy (not much supernatural stuff) but it's different enough that it's definitely not an alternate history. I class it with fantasy simply because of the tone of the writing and because it's set in the same world as several others which do have supernatural events.
I don't think authors deliberately avoid writing about Jewish characters so much as they see no reason to include the religion/people unless they're going to contribute something to the story. If no one was writing them it would be unusual but as it is I suspect it's more that stories in which Jewish people would be written about/in to aren't that prevalent.
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Date: 2008-06-05 01:54 am (UTC)After thinking about this some more (as a result of writing this post and replying to people's comments), I think the lack of jews niggling at me stems from a larger problem with the way fantasy is written, which to a large extent boils down to an irritation with the fact that other people have different taste to me :)
Still, I think it's goten me closer to articulating my issues with fantasy, though there's still some brain percolation required.
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Date: 2008-06-05 01:57 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-06-05 02:21 am (UTC)*is way too hungry for 10:20*
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Date: 2009-05-11 12:26 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-11 12:25 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-13 04:24 am (UTC)And now I am looking at my own writing and feeling rather embarrassed :/
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Date: 2009-05-13 05:27 am (UTC)Kay's style of historical fantasy is really hard to pull off, I think, and I confess that in more fantasy fantasy I prefer to read about non-analogue cultures that explore possibilities further afield. But it is disturbing to see so many analogue-Christians and so few analogue-Jews and -Muslims. And as you point out, weird: how do you get Christians without Judaism to precede?
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Date: 2009-05-14 05:42 am (UTC)Literally, yes. But if you're doing a more divergent alt history/world then I think you could have a religion with a lot of the features of christianity that didn't come from a religion resembling judaism. (The question of why you're doing this does come into it then though)
Of course I may just think that because I wrote one :)
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Date: 2009-05-14 06:05 am (UTC)I don't think it's bad, necessarily, but it is worrisome that it's so dominant.
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Date: 2009-05-16 01:57 am (UTC)But...hmm. My pseudo-christianity has no messianic figure, just a single God who's been around forever (plus a "heretical" faction who believe in a Holy Family). Which...makes it kind of like Judaism I guess, if only theologically :)
Here from Naraht's archive
Date: 2009-05-12 02:42 am (UTC)Re: Here from Naraht's archive
Date: 2009-05-13 04:25 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-14 06:36 pm (UTC)I am wincing while typing this but you asked a good question and I thought I would have a stab at answering. As a fantasy writer, I did wrestle with trying to find a way to have a Jews represented (and am still wrestling with it) and so far I have failed to find a way to do so, which is a failure of imagination on my part of which I am acutely aware. The problem I haven’t yet been able to overcome is that one of the main tenets of the world I am building is that there is no One God, (or, if a reader prefers, in which the existence of God has not been revealed to the people of that universe). (‘God’ as recognized in our universe as a monotheistic deity worshipped by Jews, Christians, and Moslems. I do have references to pantheons.) And my (non-Jewish layperson’s probably very ignorant) perception of the Jewish people is that they are, as a people, uniquely both a race and a faith, and, being inextricably linked to the faith of Judaism, and their history being so shaped by their being the descendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, makes it difficult to separate God from that equation and be left with a race of people who are recognizably Jewish. (As opposed to a tribe of people who live in an AU fantasy Middle East.) Not to mention that so much of the later history of the Jewish people is bound up in their persecution by Christians, and without God there is no Judaism which means there is no Christianity, which means there is a completely different history for any race of people I put into my world that is meant to represent the Jews….
As I said I do find this absence problematic and I’m still wrestling with it. It seems appalling enough to have a race of people be persecuted for centuries and then to add to it by writing them out of an AU world but I haven’t yet found an answer that works for me. (I also found it problematic to have people in my books who were clearly AU-Arabic and who had made scientific discoveries that in reality occurred because of the coming of Islam and to essentially deny Islam that achievement, but the alternative was to either introduce the God I had already decided not to have in this universe or have someone else make those advances and I found that idea even more offensive.)
In the meantime, I can only offer my truly heartfelt apology for being one of the fantasy writers who have so far completely failed to have Jews in her fantasy series. I hope you find some titles for other books by people who have managed to do better.
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Date: 2009-05-16 02:46 am (UTC)That said: I think you could still have a group with different beliefs who are persecuted in a similar way, even if religion isn't the cause. Without religion people will still have ethical/political etc frameworks they follow and are bound to disagree and oppress each other about them. Look at all the civil wars not about religion.
I can't speak for Arabic people but based on my very limited understanding: I think that given how little credit they get in the West for the discoveries they made they'd probably still appreciate getting the credit :) The Arabic identity isn't just about Islam after all (and has strong connections to their pre-Islamic past).
Anyway, good luck with your writing. The thing that prompted me to write this was realising I don't have Jews in my fantasy either so you don't need to apologise to me :) (That said other people might appreciate it though and I think it's a worthy sentiment)