Fail here there and everywhere

[alias_sqbr]

I am feeling sick and grumpy but also chatty. So, some links from metafandom with rambly commentary.

Failboat! The Cruise Ship of the Damned Sails On summarises a bunch of stuff.

veejane asks what sff fandom is going to do about this crap.

On safe spaces talks about, well, safe spaces.

Re the Will Shetterly/Kathyryn Cramer vs coffeeandink thing(*): outing someone under their real name because they disagreed with you and banned you from their lj? Is unbelievably low. Dismissing the opinions of everyone who disagrees with you "because all their IPs come from Ivy league colleges"? Low and stupid. Arguing against the use of pseudonyms on the internet? Just..argh. The stupid burns.

Also, given that Worldcon is in Australia next year I find myself putting together my opinions on aussie fandom with all this stuff going on in international fandom. I feel a bit stymied about what I can do personally to try to cut down on the fail, though, apart from trying not to contribute to it myself and encouraging anti-fail.

So since coffeeandink asked people to focus on positive things: I am currently reading "Devil in Blue Dress" by Walter Mosley after being recced it on 50books_poc. It is quite good, even if it's not spec fic :)

(*)People are avoiding saying their names because apparently they google stalk and harrass them, but if NOONE says their names noone will know whose been talked about. I feel too obscure to be worried, but incase they do: seriously, you're going to pick on a no-name australian rambling while sick? This will not help your PR.

Comments

[callistra.livejournal.com]

I am *still* reading about the coffeeandink thing. Is this Racefail!09?
I am unsure what the references to RaceFail is exactly. It is a concept or an event where someone fucks up so totally embarrassingly in the internet?

[callistra.livejournal.com]

Uh oh. Is it the Elizabeth Bear race thing?

[alias_sqbr]

Well..it's not really about her any more, but yes, fallout from that.

A burst of predictable curmudgeonry

[strangedave.livejournal.com]

What should SFF fandom do about all this crap? To be honest, it is about a dozen people arguing about stuff on the internet, and I don't think either side is particularly representative of fandom as a whole, or should be. I certainly think the way the specific behaviour of Will Shetterley is being taken as something that condemns all of old guard fandom to be kind of absurd, and I actually didn't even remember who Kathryn Cramer was until I googled her (oh, right, collaborates with Hartwell, NYRSF)). The behaviour of, say, Jerry Pournelle or Orson Scott Card bother me more, and I don't particularly think we should do anything about them either, other than refuse to reward being a dick by granting them attention.

And I resent having Australian debates about race turned into American ones almost as much as I resent having general old-school lit fandom judged by the obnoxious behaviour of two people. People do dumb things on the internet, and then have them blown out of proportion. That is the nature of the internet.

I personally think fighting racism is incredibly important, and their are vastly more important places to do it than within fandom.

Re: A burst of predictable curmudgeonry

[alias_sqbr]

I wasn't at all clear: by "this crap" I didn't mean the specific argument with Cramer and Shetterly, I agree that's not really our fight, though it can stand as a useful example. And I'm not generally in favour of banning people from cons etc, even your Orson Scott Cards etc, although I agree with the people saying it would be problematic to make him a Worldcon GOH. I don't 100% agree with veejanes points, I just think it's a worthwhile question.

I meant "this sort of crap", racism in fandom in general, specifically POC feeling uncomfortable at cons which is a current conversation topic and apparently a serious issue.

I think we must be using different definitions of "fighting racism" (at least I'd like to think we are)

I don't mean we should be having aboriginal land rights rallies in Montana A. I'm saying we should deal with the racism already in fandom.
* Discuss racial and other subtexts in the source texts
* Not ignore worthwhile works by POC
* Make our panels etc inclusive of POC people and POVs ie not having anime panels which assume noone in the audience is japanese and talk about how weird the japanese are etc
*Standing up against explicit racism like anti-semitic jokes
etc.

I think social justice absolutely has to start with your own community, and my community is fandom. If I'm not willing to stand up against it here what's the point? I find the sexism of fandom really oppressive sometimes and would not be happy if my male friends said "I personally think fighting sexism is incredibly important, and there are vastly more important places to do it than within fandom."

As for letting American debates invade australian ones: I think we should be aware of american/international issues when there's going to be a lot of americans/other foreigners here, as at Worldcon.

Also: american online fandom may not seem very relevant to you because you're not involved in it, and to some extent fair enough. I am involved in it (to a certain extent, obviously not the "real life" side), as are many people on my flist. The stuff I've encountered in online fandom has opened my eyes a bit with regards to local fandom but on the whole I do see them as two separate but related things, both called "fandom", which sometimes overlap ie at Worldcon.

I will say: while Cramer and Shetterly are definitely extreme examples, I would also argue that they're not completely unrepresentative of a general tendency for traditional lit fans to say that anyone who disagrees with them is obviously "not a real fan" and have no interest in understanding the rules and expectations of other subsets of fandom (since there's only one correct way to be a fan ie their way)

EDIT: Oh, another aspect of "this sort of crap": I think it's very important to create a space where people can criticise books/people etc for being racist without everyone Freaking The Hell Out. Online fandom is clearly not that sort of place, and I'm not sure local fandom is either.

Re: A burst of predictable curmudgeonry

[strangedave.livejournal.com]

I do think people should not be banned from cons for acting like dicks, unless it is physical way or requires restraining orders or other things that would get them banned from anywhere. I do think people who act like dicks shouldn't be rewarded with attention, and that being a guest is about more than a persons writing -- I would seriously consider boycotting a con with OSC as a guest.

think we must be using different definitions of "fighting racism"
Sure, but it is a time and resources thing. It is not that I resent desire to the right thing, but I do get extremely annoyed that the way we deal with the issue is so inward focussed and navel-gazing. The only real way to deal with narrow ideas about race and culture within fandom is for us go out and bring something back, rather than focus our gaze more intently on each other.

Discuss racial and other subtexts in the source texts
sure, who doesn't love a little subtext. Well, actually, plenty of people aren't interested in discussing any form of subtext, be in racial, sexual, political or aesthetic, I don't think we should make them. But for those of us that do enjoy grappling with a little subtext from time to time, racial should be there.

Not ignore worthwhile works by POC
sure, but do we ignore any books by POC for that reason, or just because they aren't to our taste? I think of the works of Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle as being very 'white' in both authorship and audience, but they co-write with Steven Barnes, and the same people buy those ones too.

And yes, of course we should make our panels inclusive etc.

Also, I think literally the only jokes I have ever heard in fandom that could be considered anti-Semitic were told by Jewish people (who are notably not under-represented in fandom in my experience). I think Jewish involvement in fandom is definitely not something we need to worry unduly about (here, or in the US), they are here.

Re: A burst of predictable curmudgeonry

[strangedave.livejournal.com]

As for letting American debates invade australian ones: I think we should be aware of american/international issues when there's going to be a lot of americans/other foreigners here, as at Worldcon.

This isn't a worldcon committee meeting. Changes to swancon need to justified in terms of swancon. We are Australians, we couldn't mimic American bias even if we tried.

Also: american online fandom may not seem very relevant to you because you're not involved in it

Well, I am slightly, but it seems primarily on the old-school side where apparently the the bad people live -- I read Making Light, I have a few friends in US fanzine fandom, etc.

on the whole I do see them as two separate but related things, both called "fandom", which sometimes overlap ie at Worldcon.
Only two? Fandom is a many-splendored thing, vast and complicated.
But yeah, traditional Worldcon lit fans can get a little curmudgeonish and defensive. All the years of eg folks saying how Worldcon gets 5,000 people and DragonCon gets 30,000 so obviously DC is taking the more correct path, etc has tended to make them a bit defensive. Traditional lit fans have to learn to accomodate the mysterious new ways of online fandom -- and on the whole, I think Swancon is doing a pretty reasonable job of that. Worldcon might not be. We can worry about that when we hold the Perth Worldcon in 2020.

Re: A burst of predictable curmudgeonry

[alias_sqbr]

I have unfortunately encountered anti-semetic and other racist jokes in unisfa, but it was mostly the result of one or two recent bad apples. Still, it made me (as someone of partly jewish descent) uncomfortable and I think other people could have done more to make it clear it was unacceptable (rather than just irritating and a sign of stupidity which afaict was the usual approach, which doesn't do much to racists who don't care about other people's opinions)

This isn't a worldcon committee meeting. Changes to swancon need to justified in terms of swancon. We are Australians, we couldn't mimic American bias even if we tried.

This isn't a swancon committee meeting either. I wasn't talking as a swancon member, but as a worldcon member and aussie fan.

From everything I've heard the status quo of worldcon is rather narrow and un-inclusive, and being an american dominated con, american biases will presumably apply. Since it's been run by australians, I think aussie fandom should consider if there's anything we can do to help fix that. Admittedly I imagine this is easier for aussie fans a bit closer to Melbourne...

See for example the discussion of ways of making sure there's more than one panel about "women's stuff" this time.

EDIT: Also, what do you mean by "The only real way to deal with narrow ideas about race and culture within fandom is for us go out and bring something back, rather than focus our gaze more intently on each other. "? I decided to let my subconscious ponder it for a day or so to see if it made more sense but I am still confused :)

Re: A burst of predictable curmudgeonry

[strangedave.livejournal.com]

The only real way to deal with narrow ideas about race and culture within fandom is for us go out and bring something back, rather than focus our gaze more intently on each other.

I think self-criticality without expanding our perspective does nothing but maybe briefly change social mores, and doesn't really change the underlying basic issues.

I guess this is addressed more to people like me and thee, rather than those who already have a significantly different cultural perspective to draw on. But I certainly found that learning more about the lives and culture of others beyond my comfortable, highly educated white middle class background and social groups did far more to help me understand my privilege, understand issues and make me passionate about them, than any amount of confronting racial issues within fandom might have. And I think talking about that direct experience from outside fandom has probably had more useful effect in changing discussion of race within fandom than any amount of critical examination of the behaviour of my comfortable middle-class tertiary educated friends might have had.

Re: A burst of predictable curmudgeonry

[alias_sqbr]

I've tried redrafting this a bunch of times and it's not coming out right, so instead of a neat coherent argument you get a bunch of disconnected thoughts which don't quite get at what I'm trying to express :/

If someone was just focussing on racism in fandom and ignoring all other sorts of racism then yes that would be bad.

But I have not seen any evidence of that. Speaking for myself I certainly don't just focus on racism in fandom. I think australians tend to ignore all racism, and the ones who pay attention tend to if anything be more likely to look outward at "those racists over there" and ignore the racism they are personally engaged in/surrounded by (although "that racism over there" may not include that against aboriginal australians specifically, and I think some are too interested in taking pointless potshots at americans)

I agree that the situation in remote aboriginal communities is worse and more important. But the situation there is not as bad in, say, Darfur: does that mean we shouldn't focus on it? There is always a worse injustice, and fighting injustice is not a zero sum game. And whatever is the most important, fandom is where I can do the most immediate good right now. I can see racism in fandom in front of me, hurting the people I care about, being perpetuated by people I know, and I am not going to ignore it. You have more connection to and knowledge of Alice Springs and I don't think there's anything wrong with you personally focussing on that more, but I also don't think you should judge others whose balance is a bit different. I'm arguing that people should care more about racism in general, and focus on fandom in particular, not that they should care about aboriginal australians less.

I think we've had very different experiences, and I can see how making fandom less racist might not be a major priority for you. For myself, getting involved in fandom-based anti-racism has been the single most significant factor to me getting involved with fighting racism against aboriginal australians. It's given me a better, less defensive way to think about race, and introduced me to people and communities who have been amazingly helpful. IBARW was initially about fanfic fandom after all.

I do think some white anti-racists can get a bit pseudo-buddhist "Reach anti-racist enlightenment yourself and anti-racist actions will follow" navel-gazey, but I have also seen a LOT of well meaning white activists with very paternalist attitudes to aboriginal australians/immigrants etc who would never think to question their own attitudes or behaviour because racism is all "Out there", and so put a lot of effort into less than helpful "anti-racism" which is often actually pretty racist. So I like to concentrate on anti-racism where I am personally complicit, and where I can talk to the POC involved and know what I'm doing is helpful.

I'm happy to talk about race in fannish discussions, happy to read fiction from other cultural viewpoints, happy to make addressing issues of race one of the many issues we deal with in planning fannish things.

Well, good, and to a large extent that's all I want people to do. And personally I don't want large time-consuming debates either, but if they're necessary I'll argue them as much as I think it's likely to achieve anything. You don't have to get involved very much if you don't want to, just don't get involved on the other side.

Re: A burst of predictable curmudgeonry

[strangedave.livejournal.com]

Sure, and lets just assume that the extremes (of do not do THIS, no do not do THIS) do not apply, and we are all people who want to address racism where ever we find it, and that that requires some sort of balance in the various ways racism is addressed, and some sort of spread of our limited resources to devote to activism. And also, that what we personally find the best way to address the issues will vary greatly based on our personal experience.

You are quite right that trying to help address racism without checking racist attitudes yourself is an issue, and you can't simply line up all injustices in order and work your way down (but rather, you have to look at both issues close to home, and the big picture). But I also know that middle class progressive activism focussing on middle class issues is a big problem to progressive movements generally, and is also a big issue in the race debate (it is certainly a big part of the debate about why white feminists don't do enough to support feminist WOC, for example). There is a balance that needs to be struck between examining racism in ourselves and our communities, and reaching out beyond the middle class oasis that is fandom. We probably differ a bit in how that balance should be struck, but we both agree it should be a balance.

As far as practicalities go, I think we differ only in one respect. You think a large time-consuming debate focussed on racism in fandom is probably a worthwhile use of fandoms collective time, I think it probably isn't. And actually, I think there are more than two sides in that debate.

Re: A burst of predictable curmudgeonry

[alias_sqbr]

I agree with most of what you've said. But:
You think a large time-consuming debate focussed on racism in fandom is probably a worthwhile use of fandoms collective time, I think it probably isn't

No. I don't see RaceFail09 as a debate. I see it as nonwhite fans refusing to be treated like crap, and white fans and writers and editors freaking the hell out. Plus some accompanying misunderstandings etc, which everyone could do without. I think more positive actions and less negativity is mostly the way to go, but I also think that's what nonwhite fans and their allies have tried to do.

Afaict, after watching similar blowouts in various subsets of fandom I'm involved in, the only way nonwhite fans and their allies could avoid this is to let nonwhite fans be treated like crap, and that's not something I'm willing to stand for.

I don't think australian fans should get involved with RaceFail09 in particular unless they're naturally involved (ie I'm in fanfic fandom, and know some of the participants personally) though it might be educational to read but not comment.

But I think australian nonwhite fans should also not be treated like crap, and that australian fans should be called out on their racism. If, despite our best intentions, this makes white fans freak the hell out? So be it. If it doesn't, good. I also think that Worldcon attendees (australian or not) should try to avoid treating international nonwhite fans like crap, and this means avoiding repeating the same mistakes people made in RaceFail09.

I also know that middle class progressive activism focussing on middle class issues is a big problem to progressive movements generally, and is also a big issue in the race debate

I have seen nonwhite/poor/LBT/disabled etc women complain that feminism focusses too much on the problems of white, straight, able-bodied middle class women.

I have heard of similar complaints about the GLBT movement.

But as far as I can recall I have never heard lower class POC complain that the anti-racist movement is too focussed on the problems of middle class POC. If you have then I would be genuinely interested in hearing about it, since that's not a POV I've encountered, and I agree that in general middle class people (of whatever ethnicity) get more airtime so it's easy to only hear their side of the story.

What I have heard is complaints that white people end up setting the agenda, and that we should stop thinking we know what's best, listen to POC, and try to work locally. So if I hear POC saying a form of racism needs to be combatted then I will try to help them fight it. (See http://delicious.com/sqbr/race%2Fculture+allies) I've encountered many, many POC in (international) fandom complaining that they feel attacked, silenced, and excluded. That this is a serious problem that needs to be addressed. So I try to address it. The ONLY people I've seen complaining that it's not worth addressing are white. (See http://nojojojo.livejournal.com/169840.html?format=light)

Is australian fandom as bad? I don't know. Talking to my nonwhite friends, some of them feel it is and some of them don't. Maybe if we try to make it less racist, white fans won't freak the hell out. That would be nice.

Re: A burst of predictable curmudgeonry

[strangedave.livejournal.com]

I don't see RaceFail09 as a debate
It started as one, and has now become a different one, there is certainly a debate in their somewhere. But you are right, it is has become less about race per se and more about community mores and power structures and individual people behaving like arseholes.

I think we can certainly both agree that it is a clusterfuck of bad behaviour that hasn't been particularly useful to anyone. I'd rather contain the damage and let Australian debates about race in fandom go on without being derailed by its continuing debates about the actions of individuals in US fandom.

I don't think australian fans should get involved with RaceFail09 in particular unless they're naturally involved (ie I'm in fanfic fandom, and know some of the participants personally) though it might be educational to read but not comment.
I've met the Nielsen-Haydens in person briefly, hung out at Making Light a bit off and on, have a huge amount of respect for them as (fan) writers and bloggers and editors, and I'm aware that they are among the 'bad guys' of RaceFail. FWIW, I think they said dumb things, but obviously speaking from anger and hurt at the time, and I don't particularly feel like either accusing or defending them on the specifics of RaceFail posts/actions, at least until such point as they might actually do something other than make a ranting post or two.

I think the more we can have our own debates about race in Australian fandom without replicating RaceFails poisonous dynamics the better -- and ignoring RaceFail as much as we can is a good way to start. Well, maybe not ignoring, noting it as a pattern to avoid and quietly trying to address some of the same issues in very different ways.

I also think that Worldcon attendees (australian or not) should try to avoid treating international nonwhite fans like crap
Australian fans will have their own, different biases to US ones. As one POC i heard put it "I like it here. People don't hate me because I'm black, they hate me because I'm American." We can try to change our biases a bit, but I think when it comes to relating to US fans, and understanding foreign debates about race, worldcon has to be more of a starting point rather than a destination.
And there really isn't much we (or the worldcon committee) can do about the behaviour of prominent US fans, and it is a bit presumptuous to think we can, at least without making things worse.

Which doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to have plenty of panels and discussions that address issues of race and gender and so on. I do think, however, knowing the behemoth that is worldcon, that it is pretty hard not to have such debates somewhat dominated by US viewpoints anyway. We can, and should, do what we can to have reasoned rational addressing of the issues, but there are limits to how much we can change the inherent institutional bias of worldcon. In particular, it will be very difficult to have panels that touch on RaceFail issues without major participants, or their friends/defenders/allies, wanting to weigh in.

as far as I can recall I have never heard lower class POC complain that the anti-racist movement is too focussed on the problems of middle class POC
And I always, in my head, bring this back to the central Australian indigenous experience, and I end up thinking 'well, they often don't have electricity let alone the internet, often have poor English skills, often don't have the cultural background to even understand the notion of class as we use it, why would they be heard in online debate?'. I know that reaction really is a bit unfair, but the middle class voices dominating the dialog is pretty acute in discussion of race in Australia, and online discussion of any topic always tends to being dominated by middle class privilege. Of course I'm chock full of the middle class privilege myself, no denying it, but still -- when we talk about fandom, it is not just that middle class voices dominate the debate, but also that middle class people are almost exclusively the subject of the debate as well, and it all seems a bit much to me. Maybe it is just a personal reaction.

Part 1 (went past character limit!)

[alias_sqbr]

But you are right, it is has become less about race per se and more about community mores and power structures and individual people behaving like arseholes.

We don't agree, we have opposite povs: you've said it's a debate, but not about race. I think it's about race, but not a debate. Various people have tried to derail it into not being about race, and some of those attempts were so reprehensible as to deserve special notice, but there is still a strong discussion about racism going on right now. That's the whole purpose of fight_derailing.

I think we can certainly both agree that it is a clusterfuck of bad behaviour that hasn't been particularly useful to anyone

No. I think it has overall been a bad thing (thus "fail"), but some very worthwhile things have come out of the wreckage. (Again, see fight_derailing, as well as verb_noire)

let Australian debates about race in fandom go on without being derailed by its continuing debates about the actions of individuals in US fandom.

Where has this happened? All I've seen is discussions of race in international fandom inspire australian discussions of race. And as delux_vivens pointed out, while the particular discussions of racism at cons are almost all about America, many of the participants of RaceFail09 are not American.

And the behaviours I've seen in RaceFail09, and all the previous similar discussions in international fanfic fandom (this is part of a continuuing pattern, not just a few individuals) have been exactly the same as the stuff I see in aussie fandom. One of the reasons I'm a bit impatient with your arguments is I have seen them all a hundred times before, including the tactic of saying that any analysis based on american discussions is flawed and irrelevant to aussie/english fandom in the face of the opinions of aussie/english POC.

Why should we totally reinvent the wheel?

You may be right about Worldcon, I can't say. I thought I'd ask the question and see what people who've been there have to say. But I'm not saying we should discuss RaceFail09 stuff there specifically, I'm saying we should avoid making the same mistakes while discussing stuff like Cultural Appropriation/safe spaces etc.

Part 2

[alias_sqbr]

And I always, in my head, bring this back to the central Australian indigenous experience... it is not just that middle class voices dominate the debate, but also that middle class people are almost exclusively the subject of the debate as well

Yes, that is unfair.

For a start, as you well know there are a lot of vocal, educated-about-class working class people (white or otherwise) out there with very strong opinions about race and class and many other things(*). They are given less voice than they should be, but are not so voiceless that we can only project imaginary beliefs onto them. There's even some in fandom.

Me, for example.

(well, partly. I'll admit I've been upwardly mobile for quite a while). And my opinions about race grew from my experiences with working class aboriginal classmates growing up, and with my working class jewish family's direct experiences with antisemitism. And speaking to those people, and meeting with and reading the opinions of aboriginal and other nonwhite australians, and looking at the (undeniably white middle class dominated) anti-racist movement with a jaundiced, anti-middle class eye..I do not see what you're seeing, and I do not see anyone else seeing what you're seeing. So on the one hand we have the opinions of actual working class people, and actual POC, and actual working class POC, and on the other we have your gut feeling and no evidence. And even if you were right and there was a bias towards concentrating on the racism experienced by middle class POC, as with the middle class bias of feminism the solution is to talk more about (and to!) working class POC, not less about middle class ones.

So again I ask: how is this relevant? How is this helpful? In what way are your actions here helping fight racism, in fandom or elsewhere?

And I have to say, derailing discussions of race by talking about class is a sneaky trick. Will Shetterly did it (though what you're doing is more like this), and my father does it ALL THE TIME (he once tried to convince me that sexism was caused by the industrial revolution, and that feminism is largely a CIA conspiracy) and I really don't like it.

Seriously, Dave, up until a few days ago I thought you above this sort of concern trolling. To be honest I'm not sure this conversation is achieving much apart from making me angry.

(*)And the less vocal and/or educated ones still have opinions, and those opinions are also not entirely undocumented

Re: A burst of predictable curmudgeonry

[strangedave.livejournal.com]

Is Australian fandom as bad? In amongst all the noise, it certainly seems as if we have a bit of a problem. As far as making race something we talk about, making something we address, we should do what we can to fix it by making it part of our dalog. Will it make enough of a difference? I really don't know.

I know that discussing literature and TV that doesn't come from an exclusively white UK/US POV is something I genuinely welcome -- I think it helps the racism debate, but I also seek out a lot of such work to consume for pleasure anyway. I think panels that talk about racial issues should be part of the program. I think we need to be racially sensitive in our con planning. I think, in general, we should not tolerate people being as obnoxious as the RaceFail debate.

I honestly don't know, however, if all this will make much difference to racial makeup on fandom, or really how welcoming it is to new fans. Maybe fandoms intrinsic middle-class-ness makes it intrinsically statistically whiter than the average population, and maybe the root cause of the problem is that the middle classes are disproportionately full of clueless white people. Or maybe we simply bear the historical brunt of a genre that has so far been dominated by UK and US white writers, and so we get white fans. Either of these situations would give both cause for optimism and pessimism -- pessimism that we can do much to change fandom by making it more welcoming, optimism that it will change anyway (demographic shifts due to later waves of migrants becomng middle class in the former, changes due to different patterns of media consumption in the latter).

Re: A burst of predictable curmudgeonry

[stephiepenguin.livejournal.com]

I personally think fighting racism is incredibly important, especially within the spaces where racism is an issue (like, for example, fandom).

Re: A burst of predictable curmudgeonry

[strangedave.livejournal.com]

Its my bias from the central Australian experience. Racism is nowhere near an issue in fandom to the extent that it is an issue in Alice Springs, seriously, and having recent experience of ugly unpleasant brutal overt racism makes it much harder for me to be alarmed by the whiteness of fandom. Given the choice between racism in fandom (that mostly seems to make some people upset or uncomfortable in some social events), and the sort of racism that makes people die decades earlier than the national average, I find it hard to justify to myself spending too much time and effort trying to fight the former that could be spent fighting the latter.

Of course, this is only a valid argument from me if I am spending time and effort on the latter, which I currently am not as much as I feel I should be. And it is an argument from my point of view, which is to say from someone who doesn't experience racism directly — I'd certainly be more inclined to fight racism that was directed against me personally.

This doesn't mean that I think racism in fandom should be ignored, but I think more in terms of trying to do what we do in a less racist way, rather than spending a whole lot of effort on the issue directly. I'm happy to talk about race in fannish discussions, happy to read fiction from other cultural viewpoints, happy to make addressing issues of race one of the many issues we deal with in planning fannish things. But I'm not really inclined to see large time-consuming debates about the issue, often (not always, but often) very inward looking and very focussed on the attitudes of other people already within fandom, as being something I think is a particularly valuable use of my time.
Maybe it would be more of an issue if I felt a target of racism within fandom personally.

I think if we care about issues of racism, then if we focus ourselves on fighting racism and addressing our own biases in more outgoing ways, and in ways more connected with general society than fandom, and bring that experience back to fandom, not only is it pretty that we will we have done more good in the long run, but we will probably end up doing at least as much to fight racism within fandom as well. Maybe this reasoning only applies to people who have less direct experience of racism personally -- but I also think fandom is pretty focussed on middle-class issues even from those who do have direct experience of racism.

Which isn't to say I have any issue with someone being interested in the issues — there is plenty to talk about, plenty of interesting debate to be had, plenty of value to be had from challenging ourselves, plenty of ways in which we can change our culture to be a little less blind on the issues. But I think the issues are more to be explored and quietly addressed, rather than urgently to be confronted. I have other issues to do with race I'd rather be urgently confronting.

Re: A burst of predictable curmudgeonry

[alias_sqbr]

I'm going to get to your points when I'm more awake but since this is my lj:

Do not tell someone who experiences racism that it's not that big of a deal, or imply that them focussing on it is somehow selfish or insular.

Especially when said person talks about wider issues of racism all the time. But even if she didn't it would still not be acceptable. I've had people tell me my experiences of sexism weren't valid/that big of a deal, and I cannot express how horrible it was.

Re: A burst of predictable curmudgeonry

[strangedave.livejournal.com]

Do not tell someone who experiences racism that it's not that big of a deal, or imply that them focussing on it is somehow selfish or insular.
I specifically said it was I was speaking from my position as someone who doesn't experience racism, and that I'd feel differently (and by implication act differently) if I did. And I meant that. I'm certainly not arguing that focussing on racism that affects you personally is in anyway wrong -- that would be both callous and pointless. And I also made it explicit that my greater interest in focussing on central Australian issues than fannish ones is a result of my personal experience, and I put most of the arguments specifically in terms of what I personally thought was worthwhile for me, and please don't try to deny the validity of my personal experience, thanks.

I do think that focussing on racism in fandom will always be the middle class focussing on the issues that effect the middle class. And while I acknowledge that people will always want to focus on issues that effect them and this personal connection to the issues is vital, and while there is no perfect answer to the general issue of the progressive middle class focussing on the issues that effect the progressive middle class (and there has always got to be some appropriate balance, these issues can never be ignored), I do think it is a big problem with progressive movements generally, and I'm hardly alone in this, and focussing on issues within fandom seems to pretty clearly be an example.

And I certainly have personally experienced the way being middle class can focus you on issues that effect the middle class (given my past in student politics and my work with the EFA, you could argue that its pretty much all my activist activity so far) and I, personally, am trying to break out of that. I'm not arguing that everyone else should, just being curmudgeonly about having my attention dragged back to my own backyard.

Re: A burst of predictable curmudgeonry

[alias_sqbr]

First off, see Point 2 here (the pdf is also very good)

Noone is saying your experiences aren't valid. The point is, they're not relevant, not to this conversation (feel free to write a post about it on your on lj if you want). And your opinion (and mine) is less valid than Stephie's. White people simply don't get to decide if things are racist or not.

Also:
I think it's important to fight racism in fandom as well as other sorts of racism. While I think the racism suffered by poor POC is extra specially in need of attention, I get annoyed at the way left wing people think fighting racism=fighting class and ignore the racism suffered by middle class POC and POC associated with the middle class like asians. I've spent much of the past few years getting past the narrow if well meaning attitudes towards race I got from my working class socialist family, and get annoyed when I feel like others are acting the same way.

Imagine this:
You write a post about how people should get more involved in helping remote aboriginal communities.

What I would do:
Either say something supportive or helpful, or say nothing.

What I would not do:
Reply saying I think our energy would be more effectively spent fighting racism in fandom.

An aboriginal person comes in to say that racism in remote aboriginal communities is pretty bad and deserves more attention.

I reply saying that ok, yes, I'm white, but afaict the issue is more to do with blah(*), and I get annoyed at the way anti-racism gets taken over by socialist agendas.

Can you see how wrong that would be? Can you see how your statement is equivalent?

(*)I would have to make up something I don't believe here, and I don't have the stomach for it.

Re: A burst of predictable curmudgeonry

[delux-vivens.livejournal.com]

Given the choice between racism in fandom (that mostly seems to make some people upset or uncomfortable in some social events),

Really?

but I also think fandom is pretty focussed on middle-class issues even from those who do have direct experience of racism.

Again I say. Really?

Re: A burst of predictable curmudgeonry

[delux-vivens.livejournal.com]

To be honest, it is about a dozen people arguing about stuff on the internet,

There's a few more than that.

And I resent having Australian debates about race turned into American ones

There's more than a few Australian people commenting.

I personally think fighting racism is incredibly important, and their are vastly more important places to do it than within fandom.

Except it would be really nice if there was less racist imagery from places like scifi writing and its adaptations.