alias_sqbr | Fannish bodies in the public domain

Something which has been making the rounds of my flist today is The Open Source Boob Project (a rather inaccurate title, it puts me in mind of a do-it-yourself Real Doll made of duct tape :) )

I don't have a lot to say on the idea itself¹ (except: Note! Comments are back up!), but it's opened up a lot of interesting discussion about the touchy feely culture at cons, and how it can be both very liberating and unpleasantly sleazy.

The thing with me is, I don't like people touching me. Not just sleazy guys, or strangers, I feel uncomfortable being touched under most circumstances by most people, and even sometimes get weird about Cam if I'm in a neurotic mood. I realised this in my teens, when I was at a very touchy feely girls school, so I quickly established myself as Not Interested in being hugged/given back rubs etc in an environment where it was pretty clear that most if not all the people offering were just expressing platonic affection² and at worst would just be a little sad when I said no.
When I got to uni, and joined fandom, I unselfconsciously used the same "polite but firm refusal" thing when people tried to hug me/touch me, and eventually was left alone (physically) by all but the particularly idiotic/inconsiderate sleazes³ EDIT: on further thought, I remember having to be repeatedly, unhumourously violent, especially to stop people tickling me.

So a lot of the whole touching thing that happens in fandom just goes over my head, and outside my experience, and I don't feel qualified to judge it very much. My philosophy is that if something makes people happy they should be free to do it, and when other people touching skeeves me out I tend to assume it's just me being neurotic. (I couldn't get very far into that ferret piece before closing the tab because ..guh! The idea of someone asking me if they could touch my boobs! Ngggg! Admittedly, they wouldn't ask me anyway if they knew me at all) EDIT: Note that I do NOT think women should have to continuously and explicitly abstain from all physical contact in order to avoid unwanted attentions. If nothing else, it doesn't even work all the time, doesn't prevent overt sexual harassment, and you get a lot of people being/acting emotionally hurt by it.

But still...I often get this persistent vibe that there is a weird manipulative/sleazy subtext to some of the "innocent" affectionate touching, and some of the comments and discussion coming out of this capture it exactly.

i_ate_my_crusts's post is a good example, and her experience parallels my own with non-touching sleaziness (ie realising that certain guys would chat to me with a great deal of enthusiasm, but only when no other more attractive girl was in the room)

I was discussing it with Cam, and he said that even as a heterosexual man in a relationship he's noticed specific and general sleaziness, and it it annoys him because (a) It's not very nice for women and (b) It makes women more likely to view all con-going men (including him) as weird sleazes to be avoided and mistrusted (My paraphrase of his opinion, may be a bit off)

So, I dunno.

ithiliana has a nice summary of several posts on the Boob thing here, if you're interested.

(1)EDIT: Wait, yes I do.

So, I have yet to hear a complaint about the Project from anyone who participated or witnessed it (Edit: now I have. Note the passive aggressive blame-the-victim excuses from a Project organiser), and am willing to admit that maybe it was a positive experience for all involved. Also some commenters have misunderstood/overassumed⁴, and some are being unnecessarily rude.

But I think even it's creators agree now that they got lucky, and it's way too dangerous and problematic an idea to do again.
Also, whatever actually happened, Ferret's description of it, and subsequent replies to comments, was pretty skeezy. As several people have pointed out, he's like a guy in the 70s going "There's this great thing called the sexual revolution which means lots of women will have obligation free sex with me! Isn't that great? Ladies, come be liberated!"

I think the two ideas that stick out to me are that
(a) It's pretty skeevy to tell women that the only way to be "free and open" is to let people touch their boobs (and yes I found that subtext quite explicit, somewhere there's a comment where only letting one person touch your boobs is basically described as narrowminded and kinda mean)
(b) While it's true that a lot of women need and enjoy an affirmation of their attractiveness, it's hardly groundbreaking to encourage women to allow themselves to be passive recipients of (male) attention, and Ferret's description of male/female dynamics here is just...really? You think the issue is that men are taught to be ashamed of their desires??

Finally, I just feel like saying that I've read Ferrett's lj (and now defunct webcomic) intermittently and found it often quite interesting and amusing, and am sure I will again, but always got that is-it-just-me-slightly-sleazy vibe from it.
(2)For me, anyway. Unless they hid it very well, in which case I'm probably happier not knowing :)
(3)The smarter sleazes correctly surmised that anyone who wasn't willing to hug them was unlikely to sleep with them either.
(4) Specifically: it was not a group of men asking any woman who wasn't wearing a red badge if they could grope them, it was a group of men and women passing out buttons to any man or woman who asked (having heard about them through word of mouth), and then asking to grope the ones who wore green buttons. At least in theory. I agree that the first scenario is an almost inevitable consequence of the second once it gets popular, and that at the beginning, before they got buttons, they were asking random passers-by.

Current Mood: contemplative

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

penchaft.livejournal.com

That is... creeeeeepy.

From:

alias_sqbr

Indeed.

From:

greteldragon.livejournal.com

Thanks for posting all that I wouldn't have read it otherwise. Also not sure if its cool to rant but you've got me thinking.

Hopefully this makes some sort of sense, its not so much about those articles but how I feel on the matter, so you might feel its offtopic (I haven't read through those posts throughly enough to feel its fair for me to try and tie those in till I've read them better).

I'm pretty different to you in that I've set lists of people allowed to hug me, and I'm fairly open about being touched and being 'sleazed' on by certain people. Those certain people are either (a) people I'm hitting on (doesn't happen much now for some strange reason). or (b) friends I feel safe around (more common at the moment but that doesn't mean people can be (a) as well as (b) but again not often as that leads to a whole heap of issues in itself)

Does remind me a lot of why I avoid and am actively hostile to certain UCCans and Swanconers (some with actual reason some with just suspicions eeergh reaction to their attitude). And why I've developed my annoying, "HihowmanytimescanImentionChrisinthissentence
andhowgluedtohimcanIbethroughoutthisentiretime" reaction to a lot of fannish gatherings. Which once started is annoyingly difficult to drop even in 'safe' feeling environments.

See the thing is I don't mind getting hugged, I do have a list, but some people assume this list includes them assume they can kiss me, grope my boobs and arse and continue down that path. Whether I want to or not. And the really frustrating thing is that when called up on it they'll ignore me demanding an excuse, tell me I'm being stupid, imply that I'm crazy and/or outright lie, to myself and to others (including their partners in some cases).

Its weird because there are guys (and girls) I don't mind hugging and cuddling or going further with, in fact their are some I quite enjoy it with, but that depends on the person, and if someone is that kinda person, it usually involved a lot of giving each other space, and feeling safe, and this bits hard to explain but its NOT just walking up and grabbing my arse or hugging me and assuming I'm cool with it. I'm very fond of my body (as much as I bitch about my weight gain) but its my decision who touches me and people that mess with that are bad.

I'm sure it can be confusing knowing what's appropriate or not around me, but most people get around that by asking, or you know apologising when I say oi, don't do that, I'm not comfortable. Al ot of sleazes don't though. And because I don't have your kind of 'don't touch me EVER' thing happening, some seem to think this gives them a license.

Anyone else doing is usually enough to freak me out for several days (if its just a hug) or upset me for several months (if its traditionally bad) just because it upsets my balance on whose okay to hang around and whose not and how clear I have to be about this stuff. To the point where I stop hanging around with people for awhile because its scary. And I hate it when I start judging all men (including my friends) for these sleazy few because I have to if I don't want to be groped.

I suppose buttons would be great in that respect if they could be different colours depending on who viewed them to let them know it was cool or not. Though I suppose then it might be used as a hit on tool.

On the upside that was about half my rant on my issues and likes about feminism gone. These issues all tie in. Sorry if I explained this badly.
My this is also a very selfcentred comment. :S

From:

greteldragon.livejournal.com

OH shit I didn't realise how long that was till I posted it. :P

From:

alias_sqbr

For a start OHGODYES to the mentioning my boyfriend/fiance/husband every goddamn five minutes. If only to avoid the unpleasant expereince of having a guy talk to me for five minutes then suddenly go "Wait? You have a boyfriend?" and walk abruptly away.

I mean, I don't blame guys for being attracted to me (who wouldn't be? :D) but if they know I'm in a relationship then they should keep any attraction to themselves, because it is totally not my problem (it's not like I'm being ambiguously flirtatious), and makes me all paranoid about being friendly towards guys.

See the thing is I don't mind getting hugged, I do have a list, but some people assume this list includes them assume they can kiss me, grope my boobs and arse and continue down that path. Whether I want to or not. And the really frustrating thing is that when called up on it they'll ignore me demanding an excuse, tell me I'm being stupid, imply that I'm crazy and/or outright lie, to myself and to others (including their partners in some cases).

And of course if you refuse to be hugged, people want an excuse for that, and hug you anyway.

Anyone else doing is usually enough to freak me out for several days (if its just a hug) or upset me for several months (if its traditionally bad) just because it upsets my balance on whose okay to hang around and whose not and how clear I have to be about this stuff. To the point where I stop hanging around with people for awhile because its scary. And I hate it when I start judging all men (including my friends) for these sleazy few because I have to if I don't want to be groped.

Absolutely. Blarg.

My this is also a very selfcentred comment.

It's not self centered, it's a useful expression of personal experiences :)

From:

theducks.livejournal.com

So this post is two interesting topics. Three, if you include my secondary discourse on the breast.

Part the first - Open Source Boob project
The argument goes that you are empowered to do whatever you want with your body, and if you want to wear a button inviting people to ask to grab your boob, then it's no-one's place to stop you. If you don't, then that's fine too.

The problem of course comes from the con campaigning this cause, and offering out buttons, then it's not an individual decision, it's someone asking you if you want to, not you coming to the decision yourself. It's arrogant of con organisers to assume people will want to be offered the opportunity.

Part the second - On hugging
Hugging is about expressing your emotional closeness to someone in a physical fashion. If you're not mutually emotionally close to someone, be it at the particular time of hugging, or in general. If that isn't there, you shouldn't be hugging. Clearly some people do it because they're sleezes who have no other hope for closeness from a reasonable human.

From my male point of view, while hugging a girl, yes, from time to time, you can indeed feel her chest, but gah, if you're doing it for the right reasons, that shouldn't be an issue. You'd expect most boys to get over the snigger factor back about 16, but as we well know, in fandom, all bets are off.

Part the third - Breasts in general
It is undeniable that breasts have a sexual role in our society. They have a magical taboo in our society because of it. National Geographic leads me to believe this is not universal. In all societies, they have a role in the sustenance of the young, a perfectly natural activity. Yet, there are all sorts of controversies about posting of photos of breastfeeding, or if its ok to breastfeed in public.

Breasts are breasts, they come in all sorts of shapes and sizes, just like people. Neither their posessor or the viewer is going to asplode if someone sees them. The best way to get rid of hangups and obsessions people have about them, is to accept that they exist and unless otherwise planned by both parties, aren't sexual organs. As the argument goes, if I can walk around in public without a shirt on, why can't a woman?

From:

alias_sqbr

Briefly before I go to sleep: this was NOT being done by the con organisers, just a group of people at the con. And they were (in theory) letting info about the buttons spread by word of mouth and only giving them to people who asked.

Because, yes, that would would be AMAZINGLY creepy.

From:

leahcim.livejournal.com

I did notice that many of the comments elsewhere seemed to be jumping to the conclusion that it was all about propositioning random buttonless people for feeling up. Or that it was only guys being the feeler, and only girls being the feelee. I think the OP (and his friends, don't forget) did at least -try- to reduce the creepiness aspect, though it looks like they weren't entirely successful. I suspect eliminating the creepiness factor altogether may in fact be impossible, at least in a con' environment, not only because it could make noninvolved bystanders uncomfortable (peer pressure, etc), but also because of potential for people to (either cluelessly or maliciously) bugger it up (and it's a steep slope down towards Badness).

From:

alias_sqbr

And of course if you criticise people for something they didn't do (and didn't say they did) then their somewhat reasonable reaction is to dismiss all your complaints, even if the core issue still applies.

From:

lauredhel.livejournal.com

"I did notice that many of the comments elsewhere seemed to be jumping to the conclusion that it was all about propositioning random buttonless people for feeling up."

But this did happen. Exactly this. From the original post:

I felt the terrors of high school washing away from me. It could be this easy. Just ask!

And then the real magic happened. Because a beautiful girl in an incredibly skimpy blue Princess outfit strode down the hallway, obviously putting her assets on display (the thin strips of her clothing had to be taped to her body to stay on), and we stopped her.

"Excuse me," the first, very brave girl asked. "You're very beautiful. I'd like to touch your breasts. Would you mind if I did?"

We held our breath. We didn't want to offend. This could go wrong, collapsing and turning us into cruel lechers who'd make her feel uncomfortable and shamed of who she was....

From:

leahcim.livejournal.com

Hmm. In his clarification post he also wrote:

As it turns out, the first woman we asked was someone who one of the originators knew, making it a little more okay to ask, and her boyfriend was standing right next to her when we asked.

Though just in case you thought I was saying that you were wrong:

Admittedly, some of the folks we asked later we did not know – but again, it’s not like we asked everyone in sight.

Which I must have missed reading the first time around. I'm wondering if I am giving them too much benefit of the doubt, but I don't think propositioning strangers was a high priority here.

On the positive side, I'm sure I'm not only one who has found the ensuing discussion enlightening.

From:

hipikat.livejournal.com

I'd just like to state for the record that, knowing your disposition toward hugs, the hug you once graced me with (the context is long forgotten) will always be the most valuable hug I've ever had.

From:

maelkann.livejournal.com

Sophie's hugs are kind of like a unicorn. Even those who've had one tend to have fuzzy memories and aren't quite sure if it actually happened. :)

From:

leahcim.livejournal.com

Mmm, my memory of my, er, unicorn event isn't actually too fuzzy. But knowing now how she feels about it, my feelings tend to wander somewhere between honoured (because she allowed it) and guilty (because it may not have been comfortable for her). :P

*feels wierd about talking about Sophie in the third person in her own journal*

From:

alias_sqbr

*feels wierd about talking about Sophie in the third person in her own journal

Yeah, she thinks it's a bit wierd too :)

From:

elaran.livejournal.com

I second what

hipikat said. I was not aware of your attitude to hugging when you did grace me with a hug but yeah. That makes it a special!hug. :)

Also, round up post of sorts (http://www.journalfen.net/community/unfunnybusiness/9338.html) about the whole thing. I sat down this afternoon and read the main posts on my flist about it. Mainly I'm just creeped out.

From:

alias_sqbr

Oh, thanks for that, some of those are very interesting, especially the green-button woman who regrets it in retrospect.

From:

alias_sqbr

Aww :)

From:

i-palimpsest.livejournal.com

Back in my fanclub days I never noticed any groping. - there was a lot of hugging, (some friends and I started this as an excuse to hug boys we liked. . . we were only 15 ok!) but no groping. Even in my twenties - if someone grabs your goodies - its out of line.

Part of the issue may be that as fandom has moved online the traditional boundaries as to what is acceptable and not are being blurred. Just about every sexual practice you can think of is fetishised throughout fic, and if anyone dares say "hey I don't agree with practice X" they are called out as being a censor, a prude whatever.

I can see the same thing happening here. The sexual freeforall that happens in fic is bleeding into real life the lines about what is acceptable are being blurred and anyone not into it is called a freak.

It's not only inappropriate to go up and grab someone's boobs - iit's illegal. A convention is not a swingers party. (And my understanding is that kind of behaviour would get you thrown out of a swingers party too.)

From:

i-palimpsest.livejournal.com

Ugh and now that I've read more on it I'm truely truely repulsed.

The gall of coming up with the concept alone. Boiling women down to touch or not to touch.

Gah!! I so hope this never catches on in Australian Fandom. Not that I ever go anymore. But this would make me never go again.

Oh hang on- good chance to hit some perves. . . .

From:

alias_sqbr

Nah, I don't think it's fanfic: I noticed a lot of skeeviness in local fandom in the 90s, and fanfic had barely made any inroads back then, and is still a pretty small subset of the community. I've hard it was even worse in the past, maybe you were just lucky in your community.

I think it's more the geek fallacies at work.

From:

distantcam.livejournal.com

Your summary of my initial thoughts was fairly accurate. The actions of a few of my gender cast a pall over all of us and I feel that women who don't know me treat me differently because of it.

I thought maybe I was imagining it and women weren't acting weird around me (which changed this year now I have a wedding ring on btw) but seeing i-at-my-crusts post and greteldragon comment confirmed that I wasn't imagining it.

From:

distantcam.livejournal.com

Wow! I haven't actually read the OSBP post due to it being long and written by an idiot, but I read a summary of the bit about the red buttons, and I must say, if people would be uncomfortable with saying no to being asked "can I grope you" multiple times, what makes you think that that people would be comfortable wearing a big red button to that effect?

All this just makes me think that theferrett and his ilk view women as walking sexual organs, and don't really care about what they think.

Also, alias_sqbr asked me what would work as a gender neutral, or male biased version of the same thing, well there's always the Open Source Knuckle Sandwich project (http://hahathor.livejournal.com/120502.html)

From:

thanners.livejournal.com

Open Source Knuckle Sandwich project

Ha! That's great (c:

From:

emma-in-oz.livejournal.com

It made me think about boobs.

The guy claimed that it was about appreciating female bodies. But not some particular sorts of female bodies - only the sexy ones I think.

No kids (and if there had been he would have been arrested). No working breasts engaged in breast feeding. This is where my mind went. In a few weeks I wouldn't even get asked, cos the milky breasts not the sexy ones, apparently.

From:

alias_sqbr

Yeah, they alternate between "It was a totally innocent affectionate exploration" and "It was totally sexy" in a creepy sort of way. Men were touched, but afaict that really wasn't ever sexual, at least not the way I've seen it described.

Countering "But what about unattractive people?" with "I have broad tastes, everyone there was attractive" is Not Good Enough.

From:

trs80.ucc.asn.au (from livejournal.com)

I don't have much to say about the whole thing, except to quote my favorite geeky comment http://mjg59.livejournal.com/86148.html?thread=735108#t735108

But! Creating a false analogy between something non-copyrightable and open source has so many advantages! The main one being, in so doing I label my preferred option 'open source' and the other one 'closed' and thus can piggyback on a bunch of detailed arguments and also a whole bunch of related and murky cultural norms saying that open source and thus by analogy my preferred option in whatever is better, freer and also the future and closed source and by a stunning coincidence also my dis-preferred option is evil.