Fandom as a female space

[alias_sqbr]

So there's a been a lot of discussion on metafandom about fanfic-fandom as a female space, both wrt OTW and (looking back) in general.

This has bugged me a bit, especially when I've seen some of the practical implications. Nothing I have to say here is all that new or exciting, I just feel better getting it out.

Now with respect to OTW my main problem is that they claim to be speaking for all creators of "transformative works", many of which (like machina, parody etc) do not come from "primarily female communities". But I'm assuming this contradiction will be ironed out one way or another in time (I asked on their feedback page, so we'll see) and don't feel too comfortable giving them crap about their policies until I'm sure of what their policies are.

(EDIT: I am so totally not accusing OTW of the stuff I'm complaining about below, it's just that discussions about OTW stirred up general-fandomy-people's nasty opinions.)

Unlike a lot of people, I have absolutely no problem with fanfic-fandom being a feminist space, or a safe space for women (I only wish it were true of sff fandom). And the fact that most fanfic is written by women is a basic fact that's silly to deny. Men who come in going "But..you guys should stop talking about kissing and start doing more explosions!" are being equivalent to a tourist complaining about those silly chinese people putting soy sauce on their pasta instead of bolognaise(*).

My problem is when fanfic-fandom is treated as equivalent to "women's spaces" like the women's room at uni. (EDIT: this isn't quite what people are doing, certainly noone says men aren't allowed. Here's the best essay I could find on the subject after a brief search, and here's the same basic idea expressed in a much dodgier way)

Unlike deliberately female spaces, fandom isn't defined as being female, it's just the
collection of everyone who likes fanfic etc. As it happens it has ended up mostly female for historical etc reasons, but that's different from a social group which was deliberately and explicitly created to cater to one group. There are plenty of all-gender social events for non-female people to go to, but if a man likes fanfic then it's not like can just go to the "mens fanfic club" and discuss it there, this is all there is.

I'm trying to think of examples...the best I can think of is that childrearing used to be "women's work" and is still pretty much done just by women. This has led to single fathers being excluded from parenting rooms and parenting groups which just assume that everyone who wants to use them is female.

Similarly, gay men and trans or genderqueer people are often excluded from fandom-y things along with the straight cisgendered men, with the argument that fandom is a women's space and they are not women, so they should shut up. I've seen it happen a bunch of time, and I don't like it.

On the whole, it seems to me that the not-women(**) in "female spaces" are more likely to be the sort to buck traditional gender roles and so be already marginalised in the wider society. Defining these spaces so rigidly that these not-women are excluded or marginalised here is beyond just defending ourselves from the patriarchy, it's perpetuating the patriarchy in it's oppression of a different group.

(*)And from the sound of things, a lot of male academics in this area are like italian chefs going on about how Marco Polo invented pasta, and who only reference the chinese at all to smirk about how they have no idea how to cook pasta sauce. To extend this metaphor past breaking: at the same time, that doesn't change the fact that spaghetti bolognaise is delicious, and not everyone who likes it hates China (or soy sauce) *is now hungry*
(**)And self identified women who don't fit the everyone's definition of "woman", like transwomen.

Note: I have a new policy of cutting down my internet time quite dramatically, so this was written on the fly. Sorry if it's all crap! EDIT: Haha, and now I've been metafandomed. Hi guys, I appreciate the comments but may be slow to reply :)

Comments

[alias_sqbr]

Right, well then you understood me despite what I actually said :)

There actually is a problem with men complaining about fanfic not being aimed at them, though I personally haven't seen it happening TOO often. This essay goes into it pretty well. Unfortunately, it does take a certain amount of deliberate effort to protect enclaves of the internet from the usual grind of racistsexisthomophobicloudmouthtroll.

Something I've seen is gay men complaining that slash is unappealing to them, which is more complicated than straight out sexism in my opinion (I mean, it is about gay men).

But afaict there's more of an issue with journalists, researchers etc ignoring/belittling the female parts of fandom because it's silly icky girly stuff rather than the Serious Important Worldchanging Stuff done in the male parts of fandom, even when the female stuff has been around for twice as long (as with vidding)

[ataxi.livejournal.com]

Hmm. This complexifies.

I noticed the essay you linked to links to this post (http://community.livejournal.com/fanficrants/1313922.html) where some guy complains about the treatment of men in fandom. More accurately, it links to the braindead first response to that post. To be honest, my reaction to the post itself was quite favourable. Or at least, if there are sections of the fanfic community that:

"... will talk and talk about men. And they'll subtlely bash my wonderful gender. They'll say that isn't it wonderful that women can identify with characters regardless of gender and men can't do that."

then I question their purposes. You've got to suspect anyone when they're wandering around normalising the crassest of crass generalisations as hard fact.

Speaking as a guy I think I understand why some men might get upset with the prevailing norms of the fanfic community. After all, everyone's always been fairly accepting of the idea that slash gained popularity because it subverted the gender roles of the transformed works (buff male protagonists become gay, etc. etc.). It confronts the dominant view by flipping the table over. But if you spend your entire time within that confrontative space, it acquires its own offensive normativity which you're then inflicting on others.

And so some gay men object to having sexual acts that, in some sense, "belong" to them cheapened in slash fic in much the same way as I've heard lesbians rant about the wholly inaccurate treatment of lesbian sex in male-oriented porn. And why shouldn't they? It probably is rather offensive to them to have the scope of their sexuality abused by women who feel like blowing off steam about their own, sometimes queer but mostly hetero (sorry for the crass generalisation, but I'm reasonably certain it's accurate), lives, loves and sexuality.

The argument seems to go back to whether anti-discriminatory / liberation movements in general should allow themselves to become a reflection of what they were fighting against. If fanfic is a dialectic antithesis of the thesis presented by mainstream texts, is there enough synthesis going on that actual progress is occurring?

(Well, actually, I'd say there is because we now see the values of fanfic constantly re-reflected in mainstream TV etc., but eh. I'd guess there are some within the fanfic community who are interested in re-contributing their ideas to the mainstream, and others who want it to be, ideologically, an unchanging walled garden.)

Of course, as soon as one leaves the confines of fanfic one is back in the heavily male-dominated wider world. So it isn't reasonable for men within the community to pretend there's no oppressive external context for the playfulness of slash-fic.

I think part of the trouble is that on the internet, everyone's mandatory return across that boundary (fic-space --> "real world") is not apparent. Those encountered within the community of fanfic are generally never encountered outside it, so it's a struggle to contextualise the viewpoints they're bringing to discussion.

I probably shouldn't comment further because I don't really spend time reading fanfic. But if one reappraises polemic like:

"It should not be seen as "anti-male" to admit that I'm mostly writing for other women. And we shouldn't have to keep fighting for the spaces that, I have to say yet again, we made for ourselves."

from the obvious other-perspective of a man, it's quite clear that it can be expected to offend some men to the point of objection, in much the same way as, say, the male-oriented domain of TV sport tends to rile women. And yet, when confronted by women (my mother, maxfenig, random women with whom I've discussed my affection for sport) I don't defend my enjoyment of football on TV by saying "men created this space for ourselves and shouldn't have to fight for it". Usually I say "yeah, it is a shame it's so male-centric, because I don't think I enjoy it just because it's a guy thing, if you know what I mean". To me that particular gender boundary is mostly quite regrettable ...

[alias_sqbr]

I actually have noticed some women in fandom being smug about how men's "transformative works" are, you know, nice and all, but they tend to lack the subversive blah-dee-blah of the stuff women make. Which, while less damaging (and usually less strongly worded) than the equivalent statements from men (there's a lot of odious attitudes towards women writers out there) is also rather sillier, since there's several thousand years of well documented evidence of male creators being able to think to think outside the box.

But, well, people suck. Look at the way sf fans act as if speculative fiction is the only genre to really explore the limits of the human spirit or whatever. It's certainly not an accepted fact that men aren't as good as women at fanfic, just a subtle implication. There's also an implication that people like dr_jekyl and myself are homophobic and sex negative 13 year old boys for preferring G rated fanfic to R rated slash. For all female fanficcers have a point about the toxic, misogynistic atmosphere of male dominated fandom, female dominated fandom has it's own toxicity to those who don't fit the norm. I'm inclined to say it's not as toxic and there's more of a culture of tolerance and diversity, but that may be because I'm a girl :).

I'd go into it further, but I've just been metafandomed. Eep!

[ataxi.livejournal.com]

"men's "transformative works" are, you know, nice and all, but they tend to lack the subversive blah-dee-blah of the stuff women make."

Ecch. That would just be annoying.

"Look at the way sf fans act as if speculative fiction is the only genre to really explore the limits of the human spirit or whatever."

Yeah, the old "literature of ideas" spiel. As if there aren't any ideas anywhere else.

The sum total of it all is "isolate any group of like-minded individuals and before long someone starts talking absolute bunk and most of the people listening quite astonishingly find themselves in agreement". Which is why "spaces" can be a dumb idea.

I don't really like media fandom, though. Or fanfic, or ... so I should really shut up now.

[alias_sqbr]

That's because you're a big smelly man :)

[ataxi.livejournal.com]

Well, to be honest, I do actually tend to like the majority of the fanfic that I read ... which is limited to the output of relatively subtle authors like bantha_fodder, and in her case I only read the works "transformed" from canon in which I have an interest: Narnia, Dune.

I can't verify from recent personal experience that there's a giant ocean of substandard fanfic out there, I can only go from secondary sources on that one!

Life's short, why waste it on trash. Most of the original texts that become focal points of the fanfic community are sub-par anyway. Bad TV and book series. Probably it's partly because the ficcers see those texts as in more urgent need of being rescued by reconstruction, as was the original Trek ... and as wasn't the, y'know, James Joyces and Angela Carters of this world.

[alias_sqbr]

Oh, yes, most fanfic is terrible, but that's because there's no proffesional authors between you and it (and look at how badpublished fiction is). On the plus side, even the really amazing stuff which could be published if it was original is 100% free :)

I pretty much only ever read stuff that has been recced to me or was written by someone I trust to be good (and again, only from canons I know and like, though the sheer weight of Stargate stories overwhelms me from time to time)

But to be honest, from what I know of your taste I can't see you liking much of the really good fanfic either, I mean if Lois McMaster Bujold is too girly and light for you... :)

I can't verify from recent personal experience that there's a giant ocean of substandard fanfic out there, I can only go from secondary sources on that one!

I can link you some if you like :D

[penchaft.livejournal.com]

Oh man, people getting into arguments about whether slash writers fetishise homosexual sex and romance or not is hilarious.

(I like only learning about things when it's through wank!)